TCMA techniques in the modern era

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby windwalker on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:02 pm

You don't need to let your opponent "punch, retract their limb and move away". That is a point sparring mentality. Go in fast, make contact and stick to him, don't let him escape. The problem is not how opponent's move. The problem is that traditionalists try to play the opponent's game, letting them trade punches, and let them move and jump around.

In my younger yrs I never did this but then again I didnt know anything about taiji at the time. What I would do and did do was to make sure that what ever was offered was damaged and could not be used again. They might be able to bring it back but would not be able to use it again. After so much time with taiji, now with my own work I've modified this so that at the point of contact, what ever, where ever it might be their whole body is affected.

But the thing is that to work well with this, you need to be very relaxed and soft so your hands can attach to his arms like wet cloth. It requires a certain courage to get rid of the instinct to keep away the opponent's hands by tension and resisting. If you don't have a method to train to be very soft and relaxed in a non-compliant and un-rehearsed manner and actually practice it at least somewhat regularly, it will be very hard to make it work. I used to practice this very soft method in sparring against hard stylists form various styles as Karate, Hung Gar and MMA. It works perfectly fine.


as tactic unless one really has and understand "whole body" movement for most it ends up not good for them, the space offered is taken. There is no yin/yang change at the point of contact, they have no yang within yin, nor yin with yang. I use these terms to mean interchange of mind/body

As Willie, noted the timing for this can be extremely short, so short that it appears that nothing happened but the other gets thrown out.
Unless ones skill is highly developed quite hard to put into use, hence a high level skill that for many is not supported with low level basic skill sets.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby willie on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:08 pm

The biggest problem that I seen in that bagua fight was that he did not give anything for his opponent to be weary of. That allowed for his opponent to strike at will. It is just another example of a lost art
Last edited by willie on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:21 pm

Bao wrote:You don't wait for any attack or look for any certain response. As soon there’s a threat you go in and make contact. You don’t wait for the other one you attack.

Bao wrote:
This is an "example" of the OP; bridging or arm-contact (wrapping) "is rarely seen in actual fighting:"

Yes exactly. And I completely disagree with C.J.W. It's not because it doesn't work, it's because no one acually practice fighting and sparring this way. You cannot have the trading punches-point sparring mind-set as C.J.W. believes that everyone must have. Everyone practice point sparring by trading punches. But this method requires a very different mind-set and getting rid of the idea about "how fights usually look". And also, gloves don't work very well when you practice this in a non-rehearsed manner.

C.J.W. says:"many TCMAists have a hard time against modern fighters who usually retract their limbs quickly after each strike, and prefer to move around with agile footwork and dodge incoming attacks as opposed to keeping the upper body rigid and blocking. "

You don't need to let your opponent "punch, retract their limb and move away". That is a point sparring mentality. Go in fast, make contact and stick to him, don't let him escape. The problem is not how opponent's move. The problem is that traditionalists try to play the opponent's game, letting them trade punches, and let them move and jump around. . . .

Your statement is incorrect. Not "everyone practice point sparring by trading punches." There are fighters that do try to "Go in fast, make contact and stick to him, don't let him escape." However, they run into problems with the modern fighter as C.J.W. says in the OP.

The Bagua guy came in numerous times. However, the Muay Thai guy did not let him control him and knocked him down multiple times. In the 90's grapplers dominated the UFC by "Go in fast, make contact and stick to him, don't let him escape." However, the current modern fighter is more well rounded. The primarily grappler no longer dominates.

middleway said it well:
middleway wrote:. . . That said, there are also a huge amount of 'techniques' that would fail the pressure test of fighting a skilled opponent from a modern co combination style (no ... not sports)

It's is EXTREMELY hard to find examples of cima being used that people perceive to be legitimate to the styles exponents. Every time we do see something people say it's not representative... so we have to raise the question .... does the cima version of fighting people have in their heads actually exist outside of the closed school environment?

Types of bridging and trapping do work at times, as I posted a link discussing them. Modern fighters continue to evolve.

I found this shou fa video intersting.

Abi Moriya
Published on Mar 22, 2015

Xingyi "rolling hand" excersise is part of ji ben shou fa 基本手法.
In order to set the partner off balance, I incorporated the motion "move" (ban 扳) from the heavenly stems set (tian gan 天干):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB2LeWzV3JQ
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:35 pm

surprised it's so widespread and even "masters" see empty handed TCMA as oriented toward combat dueling. For example does anyone actually see anything as dueling in TJQ "empty hand" practice? well it seem a lot of you do, I do not.... And as posted in another tread about Mongolian wrestling, sure that is dueling but even that is/was not intended for actual combat....Even traditional Japanese jiuJutsu(spelling?) that evolved during times of warfare was not intended for pugilistic or wrestling duels, however parts of it evolved into dueling and became Judo....Sports
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:42 am

I haven't had time to read the whole thread (just the first page) but I already feel the need to comment, so here it goes:

1) The modern ring sport of MMA that has been around for twenty something years can't be compared to traditional self defence arts that have been around for at least hundreds of years and designed for a different purpose.

2) MMA fighters don't use bridging because they haven't learned a Chinese art where it is taught.

3) After over half a century of rapid decline there are few masters that can use their art as it was intended.

4) Even fewer people have learned these arts from a qualified master and still fewer reached a level high enough to use these skills.

5) Learning pretty forms and Qigong etc. and then fighting Sanda will never result in displaying traditional skills.

6) Bridging is one of the possible outcomes when traditional techniques are applied at the correct distance (in the correct range) and with the correct timing. It won't happen when using kickboxing techniques, as that was not their intended purpose.

7) Applying bridging requires specific sensitivity training that is not taught in MMA.

8) Replace the word bridging with Qinna and all of the above still applies.

9) Bridging is one form of high-level combat technique. It is not the only one and I am in no way saying that it is the best method. It is a very effective method when applied correctly by a well-trained practitioner, however.

10) I could care less about what nay-sayers think. My opinion is based on the things that I have seen and experienced in China.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Bhassler on Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:38 am

Seems like bridging is not so much an issue in these fights.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXEPJ32m7cI

As has been said, a lot depends on what sort of circumstances one is training for.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Bao on Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:27 pm

marvin8 wrote:Your statement is incorrect. Not "everyone practice point sparring by trading punches." There are fighters that do try to "Go in fast, make contact and stick to him, don't let him escape." However, they run into problems with the modern fighter as C.J.W. says in the OP.


I've already said that I totally, totally disagree with CJW. I disagree to each and every point. Making contact and stick to bouncers is no problem. The "fighters that do try" run into problems because they don't know when to stick and how to stick because they don't have methods to practice to stick in non-rehearsed situations.

In the 90's grapplers dominated the UFC by "Go in fast, make contact and stick to him, don't let him escape." However, the current modern fighter is more well rounded. The primarily grappler no longer dominates.


The rule set was very different back in the old days, or maybe better to say there was a lack of rule set. The old days of UFC was dominated by grapplers and the street-fighters. The competition fighters fell short. Stil, the old UFC was far from real fighting. It would be interesting if they would have fought on a real pavement and throwed broken glass all over the place. I wonder if the grapplers would have dominated... But we know that that would never have happened as the show was controlled by the Gracies.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Bao on Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:29 pm

Bhassler wrote:Seems like bridging is not so much an issue in these fights.

As has been said, a lot depends on what sort of circumstances one is training for.


+1
and
+1

Exactly.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Trip on Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:11 pm

Bhassler wrote:Seems like bridging is not so much an issue in these fights.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXEPJ32m7cI


Trutv is not real. It is re-creation TV.
The fights are staged & mostly performed by actors.
Some of the tips offs are subtle camera pans of supposed security tape, the added audio of punch sounds, walla walla sound effects to imitate crowd noise, the body placement of the extra’s to hide it's falseness.

@Bhassler--I am in no way disputing your bridging argument.
This post is just pointing out that Trutv is a scripted representation of reality.

*truTV executives think we don’t care that some of their shows are fake
by Andy Dehnart 31 May. 2011 | 5:55 pm

When Court TV rebranded itself as truTV, the network said it would focus on shows that are “not reality” but “actuality.” That could have meant the network was going to order shows that followed “actual” people and events rather than soft-scripted, heavily orchestrated reality shows. Instead, they use the word “actuality” because “bullshit” wouldn’t work so well as a tagline.

While the network has aired real, truthful reality series like Black Gold, which is produced by Deadliest Catch creator Thom Beers, some of its shows are just fiction masquerading as reality, such as Operation Repo, which has actors acting out scripted stories, even if they are “based on real events.” That’s not reality TV, but because it’s framed as a reality show, it draws viewers who think the stories involve real people and have real consequence.

Its executives don’t care.

Turner Broadcasting’s Steve Koonin told the L.A. Times, “Notice we don’t say it’s reality. We call it actuality. This is our version of reality.” And the channel’s executive vice president and general manager, Marc Juris, told the paper, “What’s critical is that the people who are the main characters are real. These are real teams. This is their profession, and these are their stories.”

And while at least one of the network’s stars insists in the story that his show is real, even if these are “real teams” and “their stories,” what we’re watching is still fakeness passed off as and capitalizing on people’s appetite for actual reality. As some jerk reality TV critic quoted in the story says, that’s offensive to pretend that the only thing that matters is that the people are real, even if they’re doing fake things.

https://www.realityblurred.com/realityt ... ives_fake/
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:15 pm

A few responses in blue:
MaartenSFS wrote:I haven't had time to read the whole thread (just the first page) but I already feel the need to comment, so here it goes:

1) The modern ring sport of MMA that has been around for twenty something years can't be compared to traditional self defence arts that have been around for at least hundreds of years and designed for a different purpose.
Many fighters and trainers in MMA have traditional martial art backgrounds, which have been around for hundreds of years. Chen Jia Gou, William C.C. Chen and Wudang Tai Chi fighters participate in combat competitions, as do other traditional fighters.

2) MMA fighters don't use bridging because they haven't learned a Chinese art where it is taught.
No. MMa fighters do use types of bridging and trapping. A link to an article and GIF was posted in this thread. There are fighters and trainers with backgrounds in shaolin, wing chun, tai chi, hung gar, sanda, etc. Chen Jia Gou, William C.C. Chen and Wudang Tai Chi has students and teachers that have years of experience in "a Chinese art," that compete. There are numerous other CMA fighters that have fought in sport competitions.

3) After over half a century of rapid decline there are few masters that can use their art as it was intended.

4) Even fewer people have learned these arts from a qualified master and still fewer reached a level high enough to use these skills.
Chen Jia Gou, William C.C. Chen and Wudang Tai Chi has students and teachers that have years of experience in learning Tai Chi from "qualified masters," who compete. There are numerous other CMA fighters that have fought against other styles.

5) Learning pretty forms and Qigong etc. and then fighting Sanda will never result in displaying traditional skills.

6) Bridging is one of the possible outcomes when traditional techniques are applied at the correct distance (in the correct range) and with the correct timing. It won't happen when using kickboxing techniques, as that was not their intended purpose.
Muay Thai, Kickboxing and MMA do use types of bridging and trapping as seen in the link and GIF provided in this thread.

7) Applying bridging requires specific sensitivity training that is not taught in MMA.
"Sensitivity training" is taught in MMA by using coaches, training pads, partner drills, sparring, double end bags, etc.

8) Replace the word bridging with Qinna and all of the above still applies.

9) Bridging is one form of high-level combat technique. It is not the only one and I am in no way saying that it is the best method. It is a very effective method when applied correctly by a well-trained practitioner, however.

10) I could care less about what nay-sayers think. My opinion is based on the things that I have seen and experienced in China.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:11 pm

Bao wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Your statement is incorrect. Not "everyone practice point sparring by trading punches." There are fighters that do try to "Go in fast, make contact and stick to him, don't let him escape." However, they run into problems with the modern fighter as C.J.W. says in the OP.

I've already said that I totally, totally disagree with CJW. I disagree to each and every point. Making contact and stick to bouncers is no problem. The "fighters that do try" run into problems because they don't know when to stick and how to stick because they don't have methods to practice to stick in non-rehearsed situations.

My reply was in direct response to the statements you made, not whether you agree with C.J.W.

Here you said everyone "practice point sparring by trading punches and play the opponent's game, letting them trade punches, and let them move and jump around." As I said, the everyone is incorrect.
Bao wrote:. . .Everyone practice point sparring by trading punches. . . .

The problem is not how opponent's move. The problem is that traditionalists try to play the opponent's game, letting them trade punches, and let them move and jump around. . . .

Now, you say there are "fighter's that do try to come in." That the problem is "they don't know when to stick and how to stick because they don't have methods to practice to stick in non-rehearsed situations." This can be a discussion to further the OP.
Bao wrote:Making contact and stick to bouncers is no problem. The "fighters that do try" run into problems because they don't know when to stick and how to stick because they don't have methods to practice to stick in non-rehearsed situations.

You say, "Making contact and stick to bouncers is no problem." However, this leads back to an OP observation:
C.J.W. wrote:While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.

Do you believe Chen Ziqiang and Zhang YanFei (Chen Village teachers/fighters) "don't know when to stick and how to stick because they don't have methods to practice to stick in non-rehearsed situations?"
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby .Q. on Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:36 pm

Lyoto Machida has pretty good bridging techniques. In fact even though Luo taught us how to use the inside hook hand, I didn't think about using it until I saw Machida doing it. Works pretty well. There was a Jack Slack article that talked about the favorite technique of an old time heavyweight boxer. It was basically bridging w/ Xingyi tiger pounce (mechanically speaking) and then continue into a strike.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Trick on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:45 pm

marvin8 wrote:A few responses in blue:
MaartenSFS wrote:I haven't had time to read the whole thread (just the first page) but I already feel the need to comment, so here it goes:

1) The modern ring sport of MMA that has been around for twenty something years can't be compared to traditional self defence arts that have been around for at least hundreds of years and designed for a different purpose.
Many fighters and trainers in MMA have traditional martial art backgrounds, which have been around for hundreds of years. Chen Jia Gou, William C.C. Chen and Wudang Tai Chi fighters participate in combat competitions, as do other traditional fighters.

2) MMA fighters don't use bridging because they haven't learned a Chinese art where it is taught.
No. MMa fighters do use types of bridging and trapping. A link to an article and GIF was posted in this thread. There are fighters and trainers with backgrounds in shaolin, wing chun, tai chi, hung gar, sanda, etc. Chen Jia Gou, William C.C. Chen and Wudang Tai Chi has students and teachers that have years of experience in "a Chinese art," that compete. There are numerous other CMA fighters that have fought in sport competitions.

3) After over half a century of rapid decline there are few masters that can use their art as it was intended.

4) Even fewer people have learned these arts from a qualified master and still fewer reached a level high enough to use these skills.
Chen Jia Gou, William C.C. Chen and Wudang Tai Chi has students and teachers that have years of experience in learning Tai Chi from "qualified masters," who compete. There are numerous other CMA fighters that have fought against other styles.

5) Learning pretty forms and Qigong etc. and then fighting Sanda will never result in displaying traditional skills.

6) Bridging is one of the possible outcomes when traditional techniques are applied at the correct distance (in the correct range) and with the correct timing. It won't happen when using kickboxing techniques, as that was not their intended purpose.
Muay Thai, Kickboxing and MMA do use types of bridging and trapping as seen in the link and GIF provided in this thread.

7) Applying bridging requires specific sensitivity training that is not taught in MMA.
"Sensitivity training" is taught in MMA by using coaches, training pads, partner drills, sparring, double end bags, etc.

8) Replace the word bridging with Qinna and all of the above still applies.

9) Bridging is one form of high-level combat technique. It is not the only one and I am in no way saying that it is the best method. It is a very effective method when applied correctly by a well-trained practitioner, however.

10) I could care less about what nay-sayers think. My opinion is based on the things that I have seen and experienced in China.


Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era
New postby .Q. on Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:36 pm

I 100percently suspect the Chen Jia Gou, William C.C. Chen and Wudang Tai Chi students/sport fighters dabble quite a lot into Kick boxing and wrestling sports practice in order tho have sucess in the MMA sport. Of course he also cross trained in modern kick boxing and wrestling sports but one can still see the "traditional" Shotokan karate fighting in Lyoto Machida style of fighting full contact. Although Shotokan fighting style is not "ancient" actually it could be said It's a quite resent "innovation", but still it's quite style specific and for competition does not follow full contact fighting, but Machida adapt it nicely into the MMA arena
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Bao on Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:32 am

marvin8 wrote:You say, "Making contact and stick to bouncers is no problem." However, this leads back to an OP observation:
C.J.W. wrote:While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.

Do you believe Chen Ziqiang and Zhang YanFei (Chen Village teachers/fighters) "don't know when to stick and how to stick because they don't have methods to practice to stick in non-rehearsed situations?"


Again, " successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters." is not because these methods don't work. It's because of the competition format (i.e. the rule set and/or gloves) and that no one who compete care to practice it.

Regarding the fellows you speak about, I hardly recall what I watched from them. However, I have often seen how Chen stylists use "stick - don't let go - follow through" in Chinese PH competitions. It goes very fast and many of them use speed and strength to max, but some of them are really good at this. No one will "stick - don't let go" just for the sake of demonstrating a sticking skill. If someone stick on you, you can also stick on him, feel what he does. As soon as you use it to set up and take advantage over the situation, then it should be over.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:38 am

Bao wrote:
marvin8 wrote:You say, "Making contact and stick to bouncers is no problem." However, this leads back to an OP observation:
C.J.W. wrote:While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.

Do you believe Chen Ziqiang and Zhang YanFei (Chen Village teachers/fighters) "don't know when to stick and how to stick because they don't have methods to practice to stick in non-rehearsed situations?"


Again, " successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters." is not because these methods don't work. It's because of the competition format (i.e. the rule set and/or gloves) and that no one who compete care to practice it.

I would not call it again. As, this is the 3rd different answer you have given. The other 2 different answers earlier were:
marvin8 wrote:Here you said everyone "practice point sparring by trading punches and play the opponent's game, letting them trade punches, and let them move and jump around." As I said, the everyone is incorrect.
Bao wrote:. . .Everyone practice point sparring by trading punches. . . .

The problem is not how opponent's move. The problem is that traditionalists try to play the opponent's game, letting them trade punches, and let them move and jump around. . . .

Now, you say there are "fighter's that do try to come in." That the problem is "they don't know when to stick and how to stick because they don't have methods to practice to stick in non-rehearsed situations." This can be a discussion to further the OP.
Bao wrote:Making contact and stick to bouncers is no problem. The "fighters that do try" run into problems because they don't know when to stick and how to stick because they don't have methods to practice to stick in non-rehearsed situations.

Now, you say it is "the rule set and/or gloves and that no one who compete care to practice it." However in the Bagua vs Muay Thai video, the bagua guy was not wearing any gloves and the rules were open enough to defend himself. Also by definition, he and anyone that practices a martial art cares to practice defending against punches and kicks:
marvin8 wrote:Here is a Bagua vs Muay Thai fight. The Muay Thai guy is even at a disadvantage by wearing gloves. The bagua guy has no gloves or excuses:


Bao wrote:Regarding the fellows you speak about, I hardly recall what I watched from them. However, I have often seen how Chen stylists use "stick - don't let go - follow through" in Chinese PH competitions. It goes very fast and many of them use speed and strength to max, but some of them are really good at this. No one will "stick - don't let go" just for the sake of demonstrating a sticking skill. If someone stick on you, you can also stick on him, feel what he does. As soon as you use it to set up and take advantage over the situation, then it should be over.

However, the OP is about creating a bridge in an open rules fight, not push hands where the bridge is already established:
C.J.W. wrote:. . . bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.
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