TCMA techniques in the modern era

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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:00 am

oragami_itto wrote:Based on my personal and professional experience in concert and night club security.

Ok. But, can you describe what most fights "look like."

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I'll just throw into the mix for consideration that self defense situations rarely look like combat sports fights .

Then, what do they look like most of the time?
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:20 am

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I'll just throw into the mix for consideration that self defense situations rarely look like combat sports fights .

Then, what do they look like most of the time?


Messy.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:30 am

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Based on my personal and professional experience in concert and night club security.

Ok. But, can you describe what most fights "look like."

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I'll just throw into the mix for consideration that self defense situations rarely look like combat sports fights .

Then, what do they look like most of the time?

Hmmm, Itto writes "self defence situation" not fights, street fights, challenge fights which often erupt from some heated arguing. Already at the arguing, staring stage the duel has begun.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby everything on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:38 am

you could argue fedor used hand bridging in top level mma, for example:

Image
personally I found that taijiquan helps with judo and bjj to a lesser extent. no idea about the other tcma.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:54 am

Trick wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Based on my personal and professional experience in concert and night club security.

Ok. But, can you describe what most fights "look like."

Hmmm, Itto writes "self defence situation" not fights, street fights, challenge fights which often erupt from some heated arguing. Already at the arguing, staring stage the duel has begun.

A fight is a "self defense situation." The question in the OP was about fighting:
C.J.W. wrote:Do you feel that certain aspects of TCMA fighting techniques are no longer effective -- or as effective as they once were in ancient China -- in the modern world?

I asked Itto what his description was based on the statement he made. That isn't arguing.

Why are you trying to start an argument, where there is none?
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:18 am

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Based on my personal and professional experience in concert and night club security.

Ok. But, can you describe what most fights "look like."



What I mean is that there is hair and clothes pulling, bottles and cups and chairs flying, multiple people to deal with from multiple angles, the potential for hidden and improvised weapons. I mean it's messy. My mantra is "Fair fights are for suckers"

I mean I can handle a guy with no problem and hand him over to four cops and two of them get kicked in the head.

I mean somebody saying "no, no, this is dumb, let me buy you a drink" then waiting for the other guy to bring the mug to his mouth before punching through it with his own mug.

I mean getting a face full of two kinds of pepper spray BEFORE the fight starts and you still have to stay on point.

I mean it's fucking messy, man.

Does studying combat sports help, absolutely, 100%, not a doubt. The worst you have to worry about is getting hit in the nuts because you're not used to protecting it or falling for a tap-out fakeout.

Do you need to study self defense with the same intensity as someone competing in MMA tournaments? Not necesarrily. You have to make a value determination for your lifestyle. Are you professional security? You should train with intensity. Are you just some dude who might run into a tense situation? Then not necessarily. Training to be Fedor is likely a waste of your time. Which is fine for a hobby, sure. I feel training for health and practical self defense skills is more efficient use. Get the movement down, get some partner drills, spar occasionally.

The longer you live, the more likely it's going to be a bathtub that takes you down over some random assailant. Something to consider when building a life-long practice.

Are the techniques relevant to the modern era? Sure, but in what way? Are we defending our villages from bands of robbers? Not yet, but we're early in the Trump administration. I think those machete arts would be best for that anyhow.
Are we fighting in the octogon? Maybe if that's what we're into. Facing the fact that it's a time and money pit for all but a tiny fraction of players and accepting it's just another hobby and chasing it with gusto, go for it.

What taijiquan cultivates is even more useful. Sure, if you want to fight in the UFC it's probably the wrong specialty for the format. Protecting your ass from the real hazards of the world, though, you better believe it's relvant. Balance, reaction time, mental clarity, effective strength, the plainly observable and scientifically verifiable benefits are obvious. They've even got a damn infomercial for a Tai Chi DVD course with Dick Van Dyke hawking the product!

So yeah, tl;dr, the accessibility of the health benefits of tai chi alone make it relevant to the modern era. My personal experience with the self-defense aspects is that they are more than adequate for personal self defense and professional security and very much relevant. They keep potentially messy encounters nice and clean and they work very well with my personality. I had a habit of grabbing punching arms long before I knew about CMA.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:51 am

marvin8 wrote:
Trick wrote:Hmmm, Itto writes "self defence situation" not fights, street fights, challenge fights which often erupt from some heated arguing. Already at the arguing, staring stage the duel has begun.

A fight is a "self defense situation." The question in the OP was about fighting:
C.J.W. wrote:Do you feel that certain aspects of TCMA fighting techniques are no longer effective -- or as effective as they once were in ancient China -- in the modern world?

I asked Itto what his description was based on the statement he made. That isn't arguing.

Why are you trying to start an argument, where there is none?

Hmmm, you took "arguing" personal, I'm sorry it wasn't meant to come off as that. There's a full moon coming up many tend to get a little edgy during those moons, me included.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:14 am

Can we all just get a nice group hug going here?

More to the point, though, trick, you're exactly right. I'm not talking a single type of encounters when one person announces their intent to harm another and gaurds are put up.

Surprise situations, non human threats, environmental threats, internal threats, there are so many aspects to protecting one's life. And so many threats to it! That's why I eschew competition, just adds another unnecessary risk. Non compliant training, sure, competition, not so much for me.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Appledog on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:05 am

windwalker wrote:Of those here who practice bagua, was that representative of the art.
What did he do or not do that he should have done or didn't do.


I'm surprised you would even ask. There is absolutely no internal work being shown by the bagua guy whatsoever. But there are other problems as well; he looks like he has absolutely no sparring experience at all either.

Why was this clip even shown let alone allowed to be used to show "bagua" versus anything?
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:00 am

Appledog wrote:
windwalker wrote:Of those here who practice bagua, was that representative of the art.
What did he do or not do that he should have done or didn't do.


I'm surprised you would even ask. There is absolutely no internal work being shown by the bagua guy whatsoever. But there are other problems as well; he looks like he has absolutely no sparring experience at all either.

Why was this clip even shown let alone allowed to be used to show "bagua" versus anything?

I posted the video of a TCMA fighter to show which "TCMA fighting techniques" are "effective" against a modern fighter. As this was the question in the OP:
C.J.W. wrote:Do you feel that certain aspects of TCMA fighting techniques are no longer effective -- or as effective as they once were in ancient China -- in the modern world?

I used it to "show bagua" because the title is Bagua VS Muay Thai fighting. From the comment section, "Yeah, apparently this Bagua master is one of the highest ranked in China?" I don't see how it is not relevant.

I am not responsible for the bagua master's(?) use of techniques, the outcome of the fight, the title nor the comments. The fight is what it is.

Can you or anyone else post a video of a better Bagua vs Modern fight?
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Bao on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:08 am

marvin8 wrote:Not sure I'm understanding correctly. But, I posted two videos of actual fights, not an imaginary picture.


What I said was about TCMA strategy. I can't see how the vids have anything to do with the discussion. I don't know anything about the first clip, but the guy in the second one is a security guard and a professional boxer. He seems to be able to use his own knowledge pretty well.

Maybe someone can explain how they would use traditional methods to handle the fight in the first video, as the MMA coach did.
What would be the point to say how he should do when he handled the situation well?

Then, show how an IMA/CMA "fight should look like."


There's no "should". And there's no "should have, would have could haves." Every situation is unique. Any way you can survive is the best way. But there are genuine Chinese fighting strategies. One of my favorite demonstrations is John Wang's vid on what he calls "octopus strategy". We have discussed this one and similar many times.

windwalker wrote:Of those here who practice bagua, was that representative of the art.
What did he do or not do that he should have done or didn't do.


No it's not.
He should not play the Thai boxer's game trying to exchange attacks, but go in and make contact, i. e. "bridge".

Appledog wrote:I'm surprised you would even ask. There is absolutely no internal work being shown by the bagua guy whatsoever. But there are other problems as well; he looks like he has absolutely no sparring experience at all either.

Why was this clip even shown let alone allowed to be used to show "bagua" versus anything?


WW is no Bagua practitioner. It was supposed to be a BGZ guy so he wanted a bagua guy's POV.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:24 pm

Bao wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Not sure I'm understanding correctly. But, I posted two videos of actual fights, not an imaginary picture.


What I said was about TCMA strategy. I can't see how the vids have anything to do with the discussion. I don't know anything about the first clip, but the guy in the second one is a security guard and a professional boxer. He seems to be able to use his own knowledge pretty well.

The "street fight" videos were in direct reply to oragami_itto. They were posted to show examples of what "self defense situations look" like. These are real street fights:
marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I'll just throw into the mix for consideration that self defense situations rarely look like combat sports fights.

Then, what do they look like most of the time?

Here are a couple street fights:


Bao wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Maybe someone can explain how they would use traditional methods to handle the fight in the first video, as the MMA coach did.
What would be the point to say how he should do when he handled the situation well?

To show how effective "TCMA fighting techniques" are and how they look "in the modern world," which is part of the topic of the OP.

Bao wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Then, show how an IMA/CMA "fight should look like."


There's no "should". And there's no "should have, would have could haves." Every situation is unique. Any way you can survive is the best way. But there are genuine Chinese fighting strategies. One of my favorite demonstrations is John Wang's vid on what he calls "octopus strategy". We have discussed this one and similar many times.

However, "John Wang's vid on what he calls 'octopus strategy'" is a demonstration, under demonstration rules. The opponent leaves his arms out in order to be wrapped. This is an "example" of the OP; bridging or arm-contact (wrapping) "is rarely seen in actual fighting:"
C.jJ.W. wrote:Take empty-hand fighting for example, TCMA places great emphasis on bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters. IMO, it is because that successful bridging relies on one of two things: committed attacks from the opponent or "layman responses" to incoming attacks. That's why so many TCMAists have a hard time against modern fighters who usually retract their limbs quickly after each strike, and prefer to move around with agile footwork and dodge incoming attacks as opposed to keeping the upper body rigid and blocking. And on the occasion that bridging does occur, a modern fighter would quickly move in for a body tackle or some type of wrestling takedown and transition the fight to the ground, thus eliminating any further possible stand-up techniques from the TCMAist altogether.
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Bao on Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:30 pm

marvin8 wrote:However, "John Wang's vid on what he calls 'octopus strategy'" is a demonstration, under demonstration rules. The opponent leaves his arms out in order to be wrapped.


The opponent does not need to leave his arms out. It works perfectly well on a tight boxing guard.

If you put both of your hands on his hands he will react regardles what kind of guard he has, tight or outstretched.

From his reaction you have different choices. You can:
- pull his arms down,
- split them open
- push both of his arms to one side
- push one arm up, the other one down

This is an "example" of the OP; bridging or arm-contact (wrapping) "is rarely seen in actual fighting:"


Yes exactly. And I completely disagree with C.J.W. It's not because it doesn't work, it's because no one acually practice fighting and sparring this way. You cannot have the trading punches-point sparring mind-set as C.J.W. believes that everyone must have. Everyone practice point sparring by trading punches. But this method requires a very different mind-set and getting rid of the idea about "how fights usually look". And also, gloves don't work very well when you practice this in a non-rehearsed manner.

C.J.W. says:"many TCMAists have a hard time against modern fighters who usually retract their limbs quickly after each strike, and prefer to move around with agile footwork and dodge incoming attacks as opposed to keeping the upper body rigid and blocking. "

You don't need to let your opponent "punch, retract their limb and move away". That is a point sparring mentality. Go in fast, make contact and stick to him, don't let him escape. The problem is not how opponent's move. The problem is that traditionalists try to play the opponent's game, letting them trade punches, and let them move and jump around.

But the thing is that to work well with this, you need to be very relaxed and soft so your hands can attach to his arms like wet cloth. It requires a certain courage to get rid of the instinct to keep away the opponent's hands by tension and resisting. If you don't have a method to train to be very soft and relaxed in a non-compliant and un-rehearsed manner and actually practice it at least somewhat regularly, it will be very hard to make it work. I used to practice this very soft method in sparring against hard stylists form various styles as Karate, Hung Gar and MMA. It works perfectly fine.

This method works even better in a real fighting situation compared to competition and sparring because here you don't need to start from a fixed distance and there's no "go"/"fight", so it's easy to take people by surprise.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:47 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby willie on Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:36 pm

Bao wrote:
You don't need to let your opponent "punch, retract their limb and move away". That is a point sparring mentality. Go in fast, make contact and stick to him, don't let him escape. The problem is not how opponent's move. The problem is that traditionalists try to play the opponent's game, letting them trade punches, and let them move and jump around.

But the thing is that to work well with this, you need to be very relaxed and soft so your hands can attach to his arms like wet cloth. It requires a certain courage to get rid of the instinct to keep away the opponent's hands by tension and resisting. If you don't have a method to train to be very soft and relaxed in a non-compliant and un-rehearsed manner and actually practice it at least somewhat regularly, it will be very hard to make it work. I used to practice this very soft method in sparring against hard stylists form various styles as Karate, Hung Gar and MMA. It works perfectly fine.

This method works even better in a real fighting situation compared to competition and sparring because here you don't need to start from a fixed distance and there's no "go"/"fight", so it's easy to take people by surprise.


Yeah, This is definitely correct for what it is.
How dangerous is the opponents spear when you have a wet towel to wrap around it?
But there is also another level of taijiquan Bao. Having superior striking power, through superior root and structure.
When they retract that jab, follow it right in. That is one way. The other is to make them pay to get in there with high power fajin strikes.
Last edited by willie on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby windwalker on Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:49 pm

Appledog wrote:
windwalker wrote:Of those here who practice bagua, was that representative of the art.
What did he do or not do that he should have done or didn't do.


I'm surprised you would even ask. There is absolutely no internal work being shown by the bagua guy whatsoever. But there are other problems as well; he looks like he has absolutely no sparring experience at all either.

Why was this clip even shown let alone allowed to be used to show "bagua" versus anything?


I think maybe you might be confused.
As Bao, noted it was a question to those who practice the art to get their view point on it.

As far as the clip itself I see no point in posting clips of fails by those purporting to represent an art
when obviously they show no flavor of the art regardless of win or lose.

This is what I look for "flavor" it would be like someone selling "hot pot" a Taiwan food in the US, claiming it is "hot pot" but no one who's eaten hot pot would agree that it was so .

Again I see no point in posting such clips but understand the reasonings behind those that do.

In the clip I posted regarding some of David Chins, work one can still see some flavor of the base style along with added elements. For those looking for just the hop gar style they may not feel its necessary, for those competing in a ring with others, it pays to understand what one is up against with people of either equal to or greater skill.

As to the clip itself props to the guy for getting in the ring. No idea of his skill level or why some would title it as bagua vs what ever.
Saying this, in most bagau clips, "that I've seen" none show the flavor of the art as its commonly practiced... which is why I asked those more versed in the art for their take on it.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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