TCMA techniques in the modern era

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Trick on Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:46 am

amor wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:To those who hold the matter-of-fact view that fighting is fighting and has remained unchanged since the earliest of times, I beg to differ.

The way we fight is not only governed by animal instinct, but also influenced by examples of (or models, if you will) fighting that we have been culturally exposed to throughout our lives.

In America, for example, many people have had varying degrees of exposure to western boxing and wrestling since childhood. That's why you are more likely to see people squaring off with their fists held high like boxers and attack with jab cross combos, or attempt to throw the opponent down with a single or double leg takedown in a fight. In Asia, however, those techniques are not as commonly seen in street fights.


what do they mostly resort to in Asia, in street fights, then?

Tools, tools for striking or cutting
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby johnwang on Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:20 pm

C.J.W. wrote:John, thanks for providing examples from SC. SC is a TCMA style for sure, but it's unique in the sense that it is a grappling-focused art and different from other typical "boxing 拳" systems.

The type of bridging I was referring to is something like this that you see in many TCMA style -- based on arm contact:


We should compare the difference between the TCMA bridging and the SC bridging. What do you think the difference are?
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:22 pm

C.J.W. wrote:John, thanks for providing examples from SC. SC is a TCMA style for sure, but it's unique in the sense that it is a grappling-focused art and different from other typical "boxing 拳" systems.

The type of bridging I was referring to is something like this that you see in many TCMA style -- based on arm contact:

C.J.W. wrote:Take empty-hand fighting for example, TCMA places great emphasis on bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.

Without giving an opinion, I have never seen bridging the way the 8-Step Praying Mantis master is demonstrating under demonstration rules (etiquette) "in actual fighting." Modern fighters normally don't stand in one place or leave their arms out & in place to be bridged, as the opponent did in the 8-Step PM demo video.

Here are a couple videos of Praying Mantis fighters competing.

bambooboy8
Published on Aug 7, 2015

Some fun past moments in my martial arts journey.

Martial arts:
Traditional Southern Mantis: Louie Jack Man
MMA: Fight Firm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0au6sPJFg

The mantis fighter responded to a comment:

nbrace 8132
6 months ago
Wow this guy spends many years training his Southern Mantis and when he gets into the ring he is using western boxing techniques. Says a lot about Chinese boxing.

bambooboy8
2 months ago
Maybe, but I never learned western boxing, so maybe not... Thank you for your comment!


8StepPrayingMantis
Published on Feb 11, 2014

The following video shows Sifu Ryan Myrvik demonstrating a vast array of 8 Step Preying Mantis Kung Fu techniques in the cage. Enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vXqwIHke6I
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby johnwang on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:41 pm

marvin8 wrote:have never seen bridging the way the 8-Step Praying Mantis master is demonstrating under demonstration rules (etiquette) "in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters."

The term "trained" is the key word. When you make 1 move, your "trained" opponent will also make one move. I have never seen throwing combo like this ever used on the mat either.

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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:11 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:have never seen bridging the way the 8-Step Praying Mantis master is demonstrating under demonstration rules (etiquette) "in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters."

The term "trained" is the key word. When you make 1 move, your "trained" opponent will also make one move. I have never seen throwing combo like this ever used on the mat either.


Not sure I am following your point. That is a nice, logical combo. I wouldn't think that it is unusual. Take opponent's balance backwards with kouchi gari and ouchi gari. Then as opponent rebounds his balance, finish with a sweep or throw to the side or front. This is commonly "used on the mat."

BeyondGrappling
Published on Sep 30, 2012

One of my favorite combinations at the moment. It is a really smooth attack, especially if you have nice, long legs (which I don't)
If you liked it why not leave a comment and share it with your friends:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnpswLMFD2I
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby johnwang on Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:54 pm

When you attack, if your opponent is a

- beginner, he may just escape.
- trained person, he may counter.

In the following clip, the moment A's right leg bites onto B's right leg, the moment B's left hand grabs on A's right leg, and pushes back on A's shoulder, B can interrupt A's combo right there.



In your clip, A used right leg to spring B's left leg. B moved back (escapes) and didn't counter. If B moved back his left leg, used stealing step to spin B's body to the left, and used right leg to spring A's right leg, B's attack will interrupt A's combo.



Same thing can also happen in this clip. If his opponent doesn't counter him, he may complete his combo. If his opponent counters him, his opponent's counter will interrupt his combo.

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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:24 pm

johnwang wrote:Same thing can also happen in this clip. If his opponent doesn't counter him, he may complete his combo. If his opponent counters him, his opponent's counter will interrupt his combo.


One can theorize about a demo under demo rules (etiquette). But if an opponent does not act that way "in actual fighting," one might question the value of the demo/practice:
marvin8 wrote:Modern fighters normally don't stand in one place or leave their arms out & in place to be bridged, as the opponent did in the 8-Step PM demo video.
C.J.W. wrote:While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:22 pm

If the fighters in question do not demonstrate any of the tenants or movements if the systems they train in what makes them representative of the systems they claim.

Having studied a little mantis myself to include s mantis
I did not see any defining movements or trademark characteristics of the styles.

Start by looking at the foot work.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:40 pm

johnwang wrote:When you attack, if your opponent is a

- beginner, he may just escape.
- trained person, he may counter.

In the following clip, the moment A's right leg bites onto B's right leg, the moment B's left hand grabs on A's right leg, and pushes back on A's shoulder, B can interrupt A's combo right there.



In your clip, A used right leg to spring B's left leg. B moved back (escapes) and didn't counter. If B moved back his left leg, used stealing step to spin B's body to the left, and used right leg to spring A's right leg, B's attack will interrupt A's combo.



I am not understanding the difference in what master Chang is doing and what I described. The judo demo just left out the kouchi gari. I believe the concept and principles are more important than the technique:
marvin8 wrote:Take opponent's balance backwards with kouchi gari and ouchi gari. Then as opponent rebounds his balance, finish with a sweep or throw to the side or front. This is commonly "used on the mat."
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:34 pm

windwalker wrote:If the fighters in question do not demonstrate any of the tenants or movements if the systems they train in what makes them representative of the systems they claim.

Having studied a little mantis myself to include s mantis
I did not see any defining movements or trademark characteristics of the styles.

Start by looking at the foot work.

Kevin Wong and Sifu Ryan Myrvik believe their years of training in Praying Mantis "makes them representative of the systems they claim."

Again, can you or anyone else post "an actual fighting" video that is more "representative of the systems" of TCMA bridging and "defining movements or trademark characteristics of the styles," than the actual fighting videos that have already been posted?

Otherwise the OP suggests it may be that:
C.J.W. wrote:Do you feel that certain aspects of TCMA fighting techniques are no longer effective -- or as effective as they once were in ancient China -- in the modern world?

Take empty-hand fighting for example, TCMA places great emphasis on bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby johnwang on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:49 pm

marvin8 wrote:I am not understanding the difference in what master Chang is doing and what I described.

There is no difference at all.

The main discussion for this thread is why certain TCMA skill that's not used in the modern MMA ring. IMO, the reason is when your opponent's skill level is closer to your skill level, only your "door guarding" skill may work.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby dspyrido on Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:37 pm

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:Same thing can also happen in this clip. If his opponent doesn't counter him, he may complete his combo. If his opponent counters him, his opponent's counter will interrupt his combo.


One can theorize about a demo under demo rules (etiquette). But if an opponent does not act that way "in actual fighting," one might question the value of the demo/practice:
marvin8 wrote:Modern fighters normally don't stand in one place or leave their arms out & in place to be bridged, as the opponent did in the 8-Step PM demo video.
C.J.W. wrote:While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.


What if the "modern fighter" was not wearing skins and grappling shorts and was in a crowded room with people on all sides that are crowding him? & what if he was being punched to the face?

- Would he stick his hands up to guard his face? Be the smart thing to do.
- Would he use his footwork to get out of the way? He could try but as mentioned it's crowded.
- Would he level change and do a double leg? It would be tough in a small area and difficult to turn the corner for a strong stable opponent.
- Would he pull guard? Only if he wants to die.

So with the hands in the way what would you do? Smart thing would be to control/clear the hands and that is what this stuff is useful for.

But it is not the answer to everything.

- Is this practise useful against an opponent that level changes? Not as much.
- Is this practise useful against someone who is an outside range fighter and is capable of shifting the range quickly to throw counters? Be hard to apply.
- Is it useful when someone has managed to get the legs or torso in grappling? Not as much.

But does this practise translate to other uses:

- Is it useful against an opponent when in their guard (on the ground)? You bet as it is a great way to pin them and also to avoid being control for a sweep/triangle/armbar (especially when no gi is involved). Plus it sets up ground and pound.
- Is this useful against someone who is pressuring against the fence and trying to control and pin the arms? Yes it is as the same moves of sticking and rolling apply.
- Is it useful if someone is doing "hand play" as found in many wrestling schools in order to clear the arms for a shoot? Same.

It has a place and a use. Some might not see the value but that does not change that it still has use if it is understood how it can be applied. After all that was the same mistake many earlier "modern fighters" made when they dismissed wrestling.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:16 pm

First bit on common sence I have seen here in weeks
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:20 pm

marvin8 wrote:Kevin Wong and Sifu Ryan Myrvik believe their years of training in Praying Mantis "makes them representative of the systems they claim."

One would have to look at what they trained to understand whether this holds true. Lets start with this can you name some of the main tenets or movements of each system and show where its used or what? Having worked with high level people of both systems s-maints and 8-step I dont see any thing that would make me think they had trained in it at all. The question then becomes what did they train...

Again, can you or anyone else post "an actual fighting" video that is more "representative of the systems" of TCMA bridging and "defining movements or trademark characteristics of the styles," than the actual fighting videos that have already been posted

a good example of people who've trained are considered experts in their fields applying their arts within a given rule set.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_ZQAVoGhaw&t=17s


one of my kung fu brothers from long ago Roger.
https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/co ... er_hagood/


"I am not a man of words, I am a man of action" Rodger Haygood
respect to the teacher and his students. 2 men fight nothing gained

Otherwise the OP suggests it may be that:
C.J.W. wrote:Do you feel that certain aspects of TCMA fighting techniques are no longer effective -- or as effective as they once were in ancient China -- in the modern world?

Take empty-hand fighting for example, TCMA places great emphasis on bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters.


some s mantis for comparison to what was shown.



Notice the foot work used, its called chop step. Power generation for the style is very unique.

some n-mantis for comparison to what was shown



Notice the foot work used, we called it mountain climbing stance similar to a fencers lunge movement for the same reasons.

In closing what " I " look at is what is trained and what is used.

If what is trained is really trained then win or lose it should not be possible to use anything else. I settled these question long ago for my self.
Those I worked with addressed this and modified the system to be used in the ring against the types of opponents they would meet in the ring.

Some of the main exponents of the style David Chin, David Ross,
kept the base style which can be seen in the video clip. they both train people
to the environment in which they will have to function in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j3Fp3w ... e=youtu.be

in use


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMQnwUpLCZI


In other words " As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time
donald rumsfeld "

note: not a supporter of dr, his quote speaks to training.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:56 pm

windwalker wrote:in use


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMQnwUpLCZI


In other words " As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time
donald rumsfeld "

note: not a supporter of dr, his quote speaks to training.

The 1 actual fight video you posted supports the OP. There is no TCMA bridging (like the 8-Step PM master the OP posted) as in the two Praying Mantis videos I posted:
C.J.W. wrote:Take empty-hand fighting for example, TCMA places great emphasis on bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting
, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters
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