Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:51 pm

edited :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:30 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:07 pm

Peng jin is very much like Qi in the sense that everyone you talk to will likely have a different take on what it is. It's also more associated with Taiji. Other systems I've come across usually refer to Peng jin as Hunyuanli 渾元力 or zhengjin 整勁.

In the simplest terms, I'd say it is the state that the body is in when the major joints are opened and relaxed with fascia stretched and engaged. When properly done, the whole body becomes one stable unit that is able to better receive and neutralize incoming force for defense, and launch powerful strikes since more body mass is recruited.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Trick on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:32 pm

johnwang wrote:Agree! If you can't use Peng Jin to kill your opponent, what's the value of training it? .

A smooth and non aggressive Peng Jin comes handy in the crowded subway and as here in China when to get out from an elevator and have to face the "can't wait" in going crowd, it's great practice :)
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:34 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Peng jin is very much like Qi in the sense that everyone you talk to will likely have a different take on what it is. It's also more associated with Taiji. Other systems I've come across usually refer to Peng jin as Hunyuanli 渾元力 or zhengjin 整勁.

In the simplest terms, I'd say it is the state that the body is in when the major joints are opened and relaxed with fascia stretched and engaged. When properly done, the whole body becomes one stable unit that is able to better receive and neutralize incoming force for defense, and launch powerful strikes since more body mass is recruited.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0aRIstwlVE
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:40 pm

Trick wrote:
johnwang wrote:Agree! If you can't use Peng Jin to kill your opponent, what's the value of training it? .

A smooth and non aggressive Peng Jin comes handy in the crowded subway and as here in China when to get out from an elevator and have to face the "can't wait" in going crowd, it's great practice :)



ah the people jams, in the subway....Found it to be amazing experience in beijing.
In Taiwan they have scooter jams....a little different can be a very focusing experience. ;)


Image
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Trick on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:08 pm

windwalker wrote:
Trick wrote:
johnwang wrote:Agree! If you can't use Peng Jin to kill your opponent, what's the value of training it? .

A smooth and non aggressive Peng Jin comes handy in the crowded subway and as here in China when to get out from an elevator and have to face the "can't wait" in going crowd, it's great practice :)



ah the people jams, in the subway....Found it to be amazing experience in beijing.
In Taiwan they have scooter jams....a little different can be a very focusing experience. ;)


Image

For two years in Beijing I went with the flow of the morning subway rush hour to get to my teachers house, I actually saw those subway rides as part of my training :)
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Fa Xing on Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:03 pm

Discussing this with Tim Cartmell on Friday, he states that people seem to confuse peng jin (upward force) with zheng ti jin (whole body power). Big difference.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:48 pm

Fa Xing wrote:Discussing this with Tim Cartmell on Friday, he states that people seem to confuse peng jin (upward force) with zheng ti jin (whole body power). Big difference.


Great point with zhengtijin from Master Cartmell. 8-) Though, if upwards force is Tim’s definition of pengjin, I would love to hear how pengjin is expressed in your Sun form, because in the Sun Jianyun standard form, almost all movements are perfectly horizontal. :P
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:51 pm

Upward and Downward aren't necesarrily the direction of the hand or a particular expression of force. Up like water holds up a boat, your body's the boat.

Words fail
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:02 pm

The incoming force is the boat
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:08 pm

We’re gonna need a bigger boat.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:38 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The incoming force is the boat

practically speaking, there is no difference between the force of gravity on your body and other force coming from somewhere outside your body, just a matter of where you want to draw a line
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:42 pm

Except that it comes from the song of the 8 energies
It is not about how you hold your body that should already be in place
It is about how each of the energies is used
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby windwalker on Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:05 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Upward and Downward aren't necesarrily the direction of the hand or a particular expression of force. Up like water holds up a boat, your body's the boat. Another way of looking at could be that its an expression of whats called normal force. ie perpendicular force, in the case of water this is expressed as buoyancy. A displacement of an equal amount of water. The confusion might be with how much, and the fact the object is alive.


Words fail only when something is not thought through.


" The goal is to exert minimal force on the opponent and not interfere with his motion—only redirecting his attack to clear your body. Using minimal force on the opponent means that you don’t need a lot of strength. It also means that he will, by Newton’s third law, use minimum force on you, which lessens the chance that you will be injured. Not interfering with the opponent’s motion means that he will be more likely to over-extend and lose his balance. Then, he will either fall or pull back. If he pulls back, you can easily push or hit him.
"
http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

pung jin, unfies the body as one point, where any point is equal to all other points and responds as such.

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"6. Neutralizing. In general, the force exerted on your body by an attacking opponent can be considered to have two components: (a) a radial component, directly to your center, and (b) a tangential component exerted by friction. Because the opponent should be made to feel that he is contacting a sphere that is able to rotate freely, friction is limited to only what causes the sphere (your body) to rotate."

"The more freely rotating your body is, the less friction is needed. Thus, the main force exerted on your body by the opponent will be toward your center even if the line of the attack is not toward your center (Fig. 4). By Newton’s third law, the force exerted on the opponent by your body will be exactly equal and opposite to his force on you. Because the opponent’s force will be directed toward your center, by Newton’s third law, your force on him will be radially outward from your center."

" like water holds up a boat"

" Fa Xing wrote

Discussing this with Tim Cartmell on Friday, he states that people seem to confuse peng jin (upward force) with zheng ti jin (whole body power). Big difference."

If by up upward he means expanding I would agree otherwise it dosnt make sense. You've not stated his idea of whole body power.

Image

I use whole body power to mean that the whole body is arranged so as to form or have the characteristics of a spherical body. This can be done with the "whole body" or at any point on the body...
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Fa Xing on Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:28 pm

Bao wrote:
Fa Xing wrote:Discussing this with Tim Cartmell on Friday, he states that people seem to confuse peng jin (upward force) with zheng ti jin (whole body power). Big difference.


Great point with zhengtijin from Master Cartmell. 8-) Though, if upwards force is Tim’s definition of pengjin, I would love to hear how pengjin is expressed in your Sun form, because in the Sun Jianyun standard form, almost all movements are perfectly horizontal. :P


So right of the top of my head, the initial movement in Lazily Tying Up the Clothes (Lan Zhi Yi) at the very start of the form following Tai Ji is the best and easiest example of pengjin. :P ;) ;D
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