Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby charles on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:38 pm

In another thread, windwalker stated/asked the following:

windwalker wrote:Any force applied to some one using peng jin from one who has peng jin, can cause a number of reactions depending on level and intent according to each. The question might be more clear if one understands what is peng jin, how its formed, why is it used. what is the difference between it and structure[?]

So far you've not offered any explanation to questions directly asked , with the exception of stating the students are deluded, drinking the Kool-Aid ect. It would be interesting to read your thoughts on "peng Jin" for example


Hong Junsheng is reported to have stated that Peng Jin (PJ) is, "Not giving up what you have gained".

Chen Xiaowang has stated that PJ is, "Qi flowing everywhere".

Yang style Taijiquan classics state that PJ is a buoyant quality of the body like pushing down on an inflated ball on the surface of water.

Others have stated that PJ is tensegrity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensegrity

Mike Sigman has stated that PJ is the creation of a conduit between one's foot (ground) and the point of application, a "ground path".

wayne hansen wrote:Peng gin is to be felt not talked about.


Which one do you like? Is it like a variety of blindfolded people each trying to describe an elephant, where they are all right, but only describing a specific aspect of it?



One assertion is that everyone has PJ. I suggest that they do not: it is a product of training or of practice.


What sort of training produces PJ? I suggest that it has as a prerequisite the elimination of unnecessary muscle tensions in the body. Some people practice static standing to develop PJ. Others use slow, "relaxed" forms practice. Others use slow, "relaxed" repetitive solo exercises.


How is PJ different than "structure"? I suggest that structure is required, without which we'd slump to the floor in a heap, but PJ is a non-rigid alignment of body parts that maintains an elastic sort of quality.


Is PJ unique to the practice of Taijiquan? No, not in my opinion.


And, what do you think Peng Jin is?
Last edited by charles on Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby everything on Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:14 pm

All of the above
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:23 pm

It's a byproduct of properly set bones and properly relaxed muscles that helps the skeleton transfer force to the ground.

Used properly incoming force hits the structure like the skin of a trampoline, the structure yields until the force is equalized, that's lu, then peng jin returns the structure to the normal shape transferring force on an oblique vector to the original, that's ji.

That's the similarity to the ball, the structure deforming and reforming, but it doesn't have to be as rigid, it can be abstract. The structure of the circle deforming doesn't even mean your limbs collapse or even necessarily move visibly. The center of the sphere does not have to reside within your body. It doesn't have to stay in one place. Your point of contact is somewhere on the sphere, all other details may vary. It's a model, but it works geometrically.

It may also, instead of deforming, slip around, like split, roll over like push, etc.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:03 pm

I agree with Wayne
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:23 am

wayne hansen wrote:I agree with Wayne


I also agree with him. :) ;)

.....

Ma Yue Liang explains it very well:

People misunderstand Peng. There is another word with the same sound and only one stroke different that means something like structure or framework and people often think this is what is meant by Peng. If you base your Taiji on this incorrect meaning of Peng then the whole of your Taiji will be incorrect. Peng Jin is over the whole body and it is used to measure the strength and direction of the partners force. But it is incorrect to offer any resistance. It should be so light that the weight of a feather will make it move. It can be described like water which will, with no intention of its own, support equally the weight of a floating leaf or the weight of a floating ship. Then he added in English: “Peng Jin is sensitivity”.


So, the problem is that people confuse "peng" with other concepts. We also have other concepts for structure and stability, so it’s very easy to mix these up with "peng". This is why we have so many different appreciations of the term.

If you watch the PH lecture with Wang Peishang, he says that If when you feel force applied on you, that part of the body should become empty. He says that if you meet your opponent structure against structure you prevent yourself from changing and this means being “doubleweighted”.

So peng is not a "bubble" or "balloon" you use to support your own structure when someone goes against you and it's not something you use against someone's structure to bounce him off. Instead, Pengjin is what you use to sense and evaluate someone's movement and what you use to not collapse when you empty your structure.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:32 am

I now agree with Ma ,Wayne was wrong
Peng is the antena on neutralise
Neutralise is the glue on follow
Follow is the mind of Engulf
To engulf is a wave full of Peng
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:43 am

wayne hansen wrote:I now agree with Ma ,Wayne was wrong
Peng is the antena on neutralise
Neutralise is the glue on follow
Follow is the mind of Engulf
To engulf is a wave full of Peng


I liked that very much. Wayne summed it all up pretty well. 8-)
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:42 am

Rather then say what it is definitely, why not pose the answer as something that you do and use
with the reasoning for doing so.

Other wise one gets into who's source or master should one quote or use.
Interesting reading the responses so far...

@ Charles, good thread.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:44 am

windwalker wrote:Rather then say what it is definitely, why not pose the answer as something that you do and use
with the reasoning for doing so.

Other wise one gets into who's source or master should one quote or use.
Interesting reading the responses so far...


It's not about what someone "says" or what master says what. It's all about practical use. My understanding of the use of peng and how I would use it is about exactly just as Wang Peisheng shows in the very beginning of this vid. Though I do acknowledge that peng have other kinds of use as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRlS3fBR2k0

He sums it all up at with what he says 1.40-1.45.

So you don't meet peng with peng. If someone put pressure on you, you should empty that part of the body. You cannot offer any kind of resistance, not even meet with "peng". If you do, then it's not Tai Chi.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:04 am

not to jam the thread

Bao wrote:It's not about what someone "says" or what master says what. It's all about practical use. My understanding of the use of peng and how I would use it is about exactly just as Wang Peisheng shows in the very beginning of this vid. Though I do acknowledge that peng have other kinds of use as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRlS3fBR2k0

He sums it all up at with what he says 1.40-1.45.

So you don't meet peng with peng. If someone put pressure on you, you should empty that part of the body. You cannot offer any kind of resistance, not even meet with "peng". If you do, then it's not Tai Chi.


my observations of a clip that I also like.

at 0:26 he starts out by saying he gives him or uses peng jin.

He uses peng jin in his movements, of course peng jin interacts with peng jin.

I could be wrong but no where does he mention peng at the points you pointed to, he does use the word li or force. He uses peng jin, the student reacts as he does because he also has peng jin...
What he does not do is to interact with the students structure...
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:41 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Dmitri on Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:19 am

Hey Charles, the late 90s just called, asking for the thread title back... ;D
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:55 am

Bao wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I agree with Wayne


I also agree with him. :) ;)

.....

Ma Yue Liang explains it very well:

People misunderstand Peng. There is another word with the same sound and only one stroke different that means something like structure or framework and people often think this is what is meant by Peng. If you base your Taiji on this incorrect meaning of Peng then the whole of your Taiji will be incorrect. Peng Jin is over the whole body and it is used to measure the strength and direction of the partners force. But it is incorrect to offer any resistance. It should be so light that the weight of a feather will make it move. It can be described like water which will, with no intention of its own, support equally the weight of a floating leaf or the weight of a floating ship. Then he added in English: “Peng Jin is sensitivity”.


If peng jin is sensitivity, then what is ting jin ?

peng jin, translated that I use is "expending energy" it allows for the connections of the body to be connected in certain way, used in becoming spherical, symmetrical at all points.

ting jin, is possible because it arises from having peng jin...ting jin is used to feel and understand anothers peng jin.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:07 am

windwalker wrote:If peng jin is sensitivity, that what is ting jin ?

peng jin, translated that I use is "expending energy" it allows for the connections of the body to become spherical, symmetrical at all points.
ting jin, is possible because it arises from having peng jin...ting jin is used to feel and understand anothers peng jin.


In my own, most personal opinion it's more or less the same. Tingjin means to be able to react and understand pressure. Pengjin is the quality you use to react with. It what you need to have in your whole body to not collapse when you yield or make yourself empty.

I am personally not very fond of the focus on expanding force in Tai chi, or the idea as "peng" as expansion. The surface on the water as an expandable quality, it holds up boats. But it does not expand. Peng as expanding force is not enough as a concept of its own. This is like "kai" or "open" with the "close"/"he". Kai and he should be used together in every movement. There should be expanding and contraction at the same time, close and open at the same time. Then you have stability. Only open is one-dimensional, it's stability in one direction only. It's like the famous aikido-unbendable arm. It works only one way, if you strike at the elbow the arm will bend. So "peng" as "expandable force" is only the half part of "kai-he". It's an incomplete concept.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:10 am

Seems a little bit off?

Peng is the foundation of the rest of the energies. No peng, no nothing.

It's required before learning to listen to energy, ting.

After obtaining ting, you progress to interpreting/understanding energy, dong.

After obtaining dong, you're invulnerable. :P
Last edited by oragami_itto on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Steve James on Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:32 am

Seems like another case of the thing that is named is not the thing.

Steve Rowe made a video on this subject a while back.
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