Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby slowEdie on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:16 am

windwalker said

""
The OP started with

"What sort of training produces PJ? I suggest that it has as a prerequisite the elimination of unnecessary muscle tensions in the body. Some people practice static standing to develop PJ. Others use slow, "relaxed" forms practice. Others use slow, "relaxed" repetitive solo exercises.


How is PJ different than "structure"? I suggest that structure is required, without which we'd slump to the floor in a heap, but PJ is a non-rigid alignment of body parts that maintains an elastic sort of quality.


Is PJ unique to the practice of Taijiquan? No, not in my opinion.""

Yes yes and yes, though the form must be correctly aligned and very important is the "swimming in air"
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Ozguorui on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:19 am

Ah - Archimedes - very good.

Now we can be ignorant in English, Chinese AND Greek.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Trick on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:02 am

windwalker wrote:
charles wrote:It isn't. It is jargon. It has nothing to do with sounding like an action or a situation.

The Chinese speakers I have met pronounce the term as "pung". When Peng Jin is used/manifested, it makes no sound. Not "pung", not "bing", not "sprongue"...


Interesting, the native speakers I interact with all pronounce it as pung jin, Writing it as peng jin,
kind of goes against what they say and I use when we speak about it. there is also a "bing jin" which is different.

Lots of boats floated, and water being thrown around here.
Maybe you can help them to understand what buoyant force is and the difference between it
and normal force as used in physics.

Image

Someone mentioned sinking....sinking is sinking not buoyancy .

If the air is treated as water, as Cheng Man Ching once alluded to "Swimming in air and feeling the resistance of the air as if you are in water"
it will tie a lot of what has been said together regarding "pung" jin if one understands what "buoyant force" is.

Although theorizing and explaining buoyancy has been around for some two millennia it is still an interesting concept, and yes it becomes even more interesting when to (try)explain taijiquan with it. CMC probably was the first teacher to bring out the "swimming in air" mindset to the public, it's an important "tool" not only found in Yang family Taijiquan or Taijiquan in general but also in other neijia MA, so important it was/is supposed to be kept under the hat...Swimming in air is a great "tool" to use to get to the correct Sung and awareness state that is essential to understand PengJin.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby cloudz on Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:07 am

In the Nei Gong Authentic Classic translated by Tom Bisio and others; Song is described as being like a tree laden with snow. I believe that this inherent springy quality has been described as peng a whole lot on this thread. I also think that because jargon is ultimately self serving lot's of tai chi people have allowed those terms to merge somewhat. To the point where some struggle and or fail to make the differentiation anymore.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Trick on Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:38 am

cloudz wrote:In the Nei Gong Authentic Classic translated by Tom Bisio and others; Song is described as being like a tree laden with snow. I believe that this inherent springy quality has been described as peng a whole lot on this thread

I believe some Japanese Koryu martial arts use this symbolism to describe the essence of their(at least non weaponry) martial art.....Here in Huainan city we had a lot of snow two weeks ago which is very unusual here, many tree branches broken off all over the city. Northern trees seem to posses greater Peng Jin 8-)
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:05 am

If X is "like" something, it means it is not that thing. It is an idea illustrated by describing something tangible.

We'll, it can be considered jargon, but doctors, lawyers, carpenters, and tradesmen do not disagree on what their jargon means. Only people outside the trade can't or don't understand. However, in the trades, the jardín always refers to something tangible. An ironworker will ask for a spud wrench; not something like a spud wrench.

Afa as Peng, I think forgetting about the word altogether would be better than debating what it means for half a century. It only creates dissension and cliques.

As a lit professor, I could say that Peng has connotations and denotations, and that it should be understood from a metonymic perspective. But, so what? Knowing that a word has associations is meaningless unless one can actually make the association. I.e., if the picture of a quiver with arrows brings nothing to mind other than a quiver with arrows, then that's all it is --to the viewer or reader. Then again, quiver... Hmm.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:43 am

The arrows have little to do with it
It is how the quiver is opened with a shrug of the back
A sprung cane trap
When the analogy was used most martial artists would have known it as common place
Today most would never have seen it
Just like pulling silk from a cacoon
If not for YouTube most would not know what it means
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Or you will miss the whole heavenly universe
Just like the tai chi classics when you have the method the classics are clear
Lacking the method it is just misunderstood rhetoric or dogma
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby everything on Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:08 am

Maybe it's easier to talk about everyday experience that requires no training like:

- bumping into someone and one of you is "bounced".
- basketball charge where one person is moving, running, jumping, one person is trying to stand still and will get pushed down, not floated.

Since those experiences don't come from ima training, but obviously everyone has elasticity, structure, and likely knows how to stand somewhat efficiently in relationship to gravity, knows how to keep balance under some external load, has probably bumped into people and kept balance, what do you make of these common everyday experiences, in relationship to what you think trained peng jin from IMA does? Should you always, consciously or unconsciously, be able to be the one who "bounced" the other person? Should you be able to handle a basketball charge better than a player (who albeit is standing with weak line perpendicular to the incoming force and is ready to draw/sell the foul and sit down)? What else? Will you try to help someone to start from these reference points? Say, no that has nothing to do with it, let's do X? A mix?
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Steve James on Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:32 am

Maybe it's easier to talk about everyday experience


T'would be useful, but then everybody would know --or would say they knew ;).
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby everything on Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:01 am



another common experience. all of us have been babies. babies have amazing whole body springlike strength. they have no brute force. the cannot float you. they can barely stand. do they have some natural "peng jin"?
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:46 am

Excerpt from The Five Most Important Taijiquan Skills for Beginners: Peng Jin and Ding Jin, https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/b ... rs-part-2/
Wang Hai Jun, translated by Nick Gudge wrote:Peng Jin – an outward supportive strength the basic skill of taijiquan

Peng Jin (sometimes simply Peng) is the core skill of taijiquan. All other taijiquan skills are based around the skill. It comes from loosening the body (fang song) and stretching. In essence, ‘stretching but not straightening’ the joints. Peng is not a natural or instinctive skill. It comes from a long period of correct practice. Without a good understanding of peng and then considerable training to transform this understanding into this skill in every part of the body, it will not arise. Peng will not be gained by accident. It is systematically trained into the body over time.

When I was exploring writing this piece I considered making peng jin the first most important skill of taijiquan. However, while peng should be considered the most important skill, it is dependent on loosening the body (fang song.) It is an effective argument that Taijiquan is peng jin chuan because without peng there is no taijiquan. It is taijiquan’s essential skill. Peng is always used when moving, neutralizing, striking, coiling etc,. Through peng all other taijiquan skills are utilized.

The phrase peng jin has been the source of some confusion. The two characters (peng and jin) have several meanings in Chinese and specific meaning within the context of taijiquan. Jin is itself is not simple to translate into English. There is no one effective word that can be used. It is translated variously as skill, strength and energy and the term incorporates all of these meanings. Peng is even more difficult to translate. It has been frequently translated as “ward off energy”. I prefer the phrase ‘outward supportive strength’ as a translation.

Peng JinChen Fake taught that there are two types of peng jin. The first is the fundamental skill or strength of taijiquan. The second is one of the eight commonly recognized taijiquan jins, (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lieh, zhou & kao.) The first type of peng is the core element that is the foundation of these eight commonly recognized skills. It is perhaps best considered in English as a separate term from the peng that is listed as one of these eight skills. All eight jins have their basis in peng that is the fundamental skill. From the outside peng has different appearances so it is sometimes called the eight gates (after the eight directions,) but the heart of all eight is always peng the fundamental skill. It is this fundamental skill or strength that I am referring to when I talk about beginners skills. In the past ten years there has been much talk about peng. A student cannot simply demonstrate and use peng just because they will it. It requires external posture training combined with internal jin training to be able to correctly express it. If you do not have peng then you do not have Taijiquan’s jin and it follows that you also will not havelu, ji or an etc”.

The fundamental skill peng describes when the limbs and body stretch or extend while maintaining looseness orfang song. Without looseness (fang song) the body is stiff and peng is lost. If the body is too loose or limp thenpeng is also lost. Without stretching the body is not properly connected and peng is lost. If the limbs and body are over extended then they become rigid and peng is lost. So it is fairly easy to see that a “balance” must be maintained to retain peng. If any part of the body does not have peng, it is an error and must be remedied appropriately. Many form corrections are about regaining peng to various parts of the body, most commonly the knees and elbows. Typically peng is lost or lessened because the body has stiffened or not been loosened sufficiently, most commonly the hips and shoulders.

For those who do not comprehend peng, it can be barely discerned in the surface of the forms. For those who do comprehend peng, its absence is clearly visible. In many respects the basic hand forms of taijiquan specifically works as a peng jin training arena.

Peng jin is not an “on / off” skill. While it is easy not to have it, once it is understood its quality can be improved. Like any form of understanding e.g. learning a new language, it is quite possible not to understand anything in the beginning. While learning there are many degrees of improvement or quality that can be sought and reached. From this understanding it is quite easy to see not only the importance of looseness (fang song) as an integral pre-requisite for peng – this fundamental skill of taijiquan – but also, that improving the appropriate looseness of the body will improve the quality or degree of peng skill.

It is very difficult to convey the idea of peng jin without hands on correction. The student needs to be lead to it after an initial degree of looseness is gained. It is not a “Step One leading to Step Two” type process. Rather it is a process of immersion which leads to understanding. Hands on, frequent correction of the body is required. Understanding the concept generally, will not necessarily translate to a compete understanding in the body. It is a process. Wandering off can and does happen frequently. As an old Chen village saying says, what is required is a good teacher, good understanding and good practice. Without all three gong fu will not be attained. It requires a teacher who understands and can see where the priority of correction is required to enable a student to understand the idea of peng in their body and not to become distracted or confused.

Ding JinFrom inside the body, when peng is present any pressure is transferred to the ground (rooted.) The stretching process connects the body in such a way that this happens without additional effort. It could be called a flexible structure inside the body. Consequently when peng is present the body becomes a little like a solid rubber object. It is not rigid, but loose and flexible where pressure to any part is easily transferred across its whole structure.

When touching someone else peng can been described as an audible skill because, not only does it allow the detection of fine motions of an opponent (as if through the sense of hearing,) it also allows determination of their structural weaknesses. When touching a person with peng it become possible to know the best direction to attack them as well as being able to comprehend what the other person is doing and even intending to do. Listening skill (ting jin) occurs through peng jin.

In taijiquan the emphasis of peng is on leading and neutralizing of an incoming force. When peng jin is present there is the potential for rotation. With loose joints the body becomes mobile and by stretching it becomes connected. So any pressure on the body causes rotation or motion. Peng is at the heart of silk reeling as we will see in the last article of this series.

It is also the skill which allows and supports attack. It allows for a rapid response for rapid attack and a slow response for slow offensive. In push hands (tui shou) practice, the student is said to have crossed the threshold only when they have learned the meaning and skill of peng jin. Beginners often take years to accomplish this. While practicing, not only the hands and arms but where any part of the body that comes into contact with the other person a taiji player should make use of this outward supportive or warding force.

So, using peng, a skilled practitioner not only can detect what an opponent is doing, they can neutralize it, detect the direction of vulnerability and attack through it. When this understanding is reached it is easy to see why it is considered the core skill of taijiquan. Where the joints are not loose, peng is lost. Where the limbs are limp and not stretched peng is lost. So beginning with loosening the body, then adding stretching without becoming rigid, the skill that is peng jin becomes manifest in the body. Initially at the start and end of each posture, then continuously in the process of motion.


Excerpt from Peng, the Elastic Power, http://taichi-philosophy.blogspot.com/2 ... power.html:
Martin Boedicker, aka Martin2, on December 19. 2013 wrote:. . . But why it is so difficult to use peng? To understand this, one must divide the use of peng into two phases.

The first phase of peng

In the first phase one leads the force of the opponent into one owns center and one collects it like in a spring. Through this, one is also able to feel the direction and the amount of the attacking force.

Ma Yueliang:
Peng is a reaction to the amount of the force of the opponent. In Pushhands one finds peng not only in the hands and arms, but all parts of the body have peng-power, which touch the opponent. If one has peng-power, one reached: 'If a movement is fast, one answers fast. If a movement is slow, one answers slow.' If one masters this, the feeling-power (tingjin) is just peng.


. . . Thus, here peng is explained by the power of a spring. A similar picture was probably used, when the Tai Chi-masters changed the old Chinese character bing into the Tai Chi technical term peng. Originally bing stands for a quiver cover under pressure. The character of bing has the radical of hand (left) and the character with the pronunciation bing or peng (right):

Image

This character is connected to:

Image

The left character peng with the radical wood denotes an old war bow. The right character with the radical silk and the pronunciation bing denotes the pulling of a bow.

In the first phase of peng the incoming force is stored in one owns body like in a spring or in a drawn bow.
The great difficulty in this phase of peng is, that the your body has to take the force of the opponent in an optimal way. Just the smallest mistake in timing or structure of the body will result in the technique collapsing.

The second phase of peng

In the second phase of peng one can release the stored power in different ways. If the power is send back into the opponent, one still calls this peng.

Ma Yueliang:
"If one was able to control the force of the opponent, one can use this opportunity against him and thus defeat him."
(Ma, Xu, p.9)

On the other hand one can also lead the stored energy with lü into the emptiness and thus destroy the center of the opponent. Ma Jiangbao explains it in this way:

"First I uses a small peng to feel the force of the opponent and then I lead him into the emptiness with a lü."


Ma Yueliang comments:
Peng-jin is full, but not full. It is empty, but not empty. Once full - once empty. The other does not know me, but I alone know the other. This explains, why peng is a hidden jin-power. Peng is also explained as the jin-power in the background. It is repeatedly said, that peng is like water. Water can carry a fallen leave as well as a big ship. In pushhands it doesn't matter if the attacking force is small or big. With peng you can master it. But peng is not only the carrying relationship that a boat has with water, but it is also a fine and subtle movement. When I receive the force of the other, I use my central equilibrium (zhongding) as a pivot, to change the direction of the incoming force upwards. In this way I let the other hang in the air and I can use a smaller force than the opponent: Even if he uses a thousand pounds, it is easy to let him float.
(Ma, Xu, p. 9)


The difficulty of peng in the second phase is to decide, what one wants to do with the force of the opponent. In the end one is dealing with a large force and even the smallest mistake allows the the full force to impact into your own body. Thus one should train the full peng only, when one has reached the level to deal with great force without using too much force oneself.


Bao wrote:You can read the discussion on this page and maybe you will be wiser or maybe more confused...

http://practicalmethod.com/2012/04/peng-is-it-written-掤-or-棚/

From comments section:
bruce.schaub April 30, 2012 at 2:37 pm wrote:i happened to watch the “Concave Circle 2″ video today which is one of the few videos available on the site which I had not purchased and watched multiple times. It really describes PM peng energy manipulations very clearly. Principally it shows to always expand the upper half of the body from the inside making the inside longer as we extend which opens us up, releases power, and creates a one sided stretch drilling as we extend. The other thing that really struck me after watching is that even when our outside appearance looks like its getting smaller (as in the first half of the circle) we are still actually expanding by stretching the tendons on a series of opposing directions so still becoming longer and still connected in that sense it’s visually very clear how that springy tension is produced in a closing movement..even when were folding in we are still producing peng….of course thats if we can do it correctly which i’m pretty sure i can’t…not completely anyway.


From Tai Chi internal stretching, http://www.discovertaiji.com/en/tai-chi ... ng_92.html:
Adam Mizner wrote:Dui La 对拉 meaning something like “to stretch between”. It’s one of those fundamental principles of taiji quan that are all too often forgotten or misunderstood. When I travel to give taiji, qigong or meditation workshops in Asia, the USA, Australia and Europe I find that this taiji principle is mostly ignored. Most people attempt to use their body as one piece, committing the whole body in one direction at a given time.

T’AI CHI CH’UAN CHING - attributed to Chang San-feng (est. 1279 -1386) as researched by Lee N. Scheele wrote:If there is up, there is down. When advancing, have regard for withdrawing. When striking left, pay attention to the right. If the I wants to move upward, it must simultaneously have intent downward.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SN1ZsXaBk4

This is pointing directly at the principle of dui la or stretching between. It is another manifestation of the yin yang principle which is the governing principle in all taiji learning.

When dui la is happening in the body it is opening and stretching the body, the feeling can be unpleasant as you adapt to it much like any stretching. The health benefits are many, as the muscles release and the fascia unbinds, the qi flows smoothly. I am currently using this principle and meditation to heal my herniated lumbar disks and have used it to heal much in the past.

To further your learning and training in taijiquan (tai chi chuan) and to discover the meaning of dui la in practice, keep in mind the basic opposites within the body, the left side and the right side, the crown and the tailbone, up and down. All the secrets of Taijiquan can be found within the principle of yin yang. One who truly comprehends yin yang within the body and mind truly comprehends taijiquan.

The “stretch” video above gives a small hint at one use of dui la, of course the depth and application of this principle go far and are essential for taiji and qigong, as well as for both health and martial arts.


johnwang wrote:Here is an example that A borrows B's yielding force.

1. A pushes, B yields.
2. A borrows B's yielding force and pushes again. . . .

Here is an example that A borrows B's resisting force.

1. A pushes, B resists.
2. A borrows B's resisting force and change push into pull, B resists again.
3. A borrows B's resisting force and change pull back into push. . . .

I'm still allergy to "push".

I thought "A" is allergy to "push?" :)
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:04 pm

marvin8 wrote:I thought "A" is allergy to "push?" :)

To push on the shoulder and pull on the leg is called

- 扣 (Kou) - knee seizing, or
- 掏 (Tao) - Inner knee seizing.

The 2 points contact throw is different from the 1 point contact push.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Strange on Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:37 pm

am patiently waiting for a post to assert pengjin moves clouds in the sky
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby slowEdie on Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:08 pm

ah that would be yun shou
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:22 pm

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:Here is an example that A borrows B's yielding force.

1. A pushes, B yields.
2. A borrows B's yielding force and pushes again. . . .

Here is an example that A borrows B's resisting force.

1. A pushes, B resists.
2. A borrows B's resisting force and change push into pull, B resists again.
3. A borrows B's resisting force and change pull back into push. . . .

I'm still allergy to "push".

I thought "A" is allergy to "push?" :)

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I thought "A" is allergy to "push?" :)

To push on the shoulder and pull on the leg is called

- 扣 (Kou) - knee seizing, or
- 掏 (Tao) - Inner knee seizing.

The 2 points contact throw is different from the 1 point contact push.

However, push is necessary in your examples in order to "borrow" opponent's "force," correct? IOW, there is no borrowing without push.

Push is important in action/reaction; like in your examples. I believe your signature statement should include a qualifier to be more accurate.
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