Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Fa Xing on Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:30 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Upward and Downward aren't necesarrily the direction of the hand or a particular expression of force. Up like water holds up a boat, your body's the boat.

Words fail


The opponent is the boat, I'm the water.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Fa Xing on Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:38 pm

Traditionally, single patterns of movement were learned and repeated over and over until mastered, only then was the next pattern taught. Once the student had mastered an entire sequence of movements individually, the movements were taught in a linked sequence (a ‘set’). The goal of training is to cultivate a kind of ‘whole body’ power. This refers to the ability to generate power with the entire body, making full use of one’s whole body mass in every movement. Power is always generated from “the bottom up, meaning the powerful muscles of the legs and hip serve as the seat of power. Using the strength of the relatively weaker arms and upper body is not emphasized. The entire body is held in a state of dynamic relaxation which allows the power of the whole body to flow out of the hands and into the opponent without obstruction. This is described in the Tai Ji Quan Classics as “being rooted in the feet, developed by the legs, directed by the waist transferred through the back and expressed in the hands.”The Tai Ji Quan arts have a variety of two person drills and exercises designed to cultivate a high degree of sensitivity in the practitioner. Using brute force or opposing another’s power with power directly (double weighting) is strictly discouraged. The goal of two person training is to develop sensitivity to the point that one may avoid the opponent’s power and apply one’s own whole body power where the opponent is most vulnerable. One must cultivate the ability to ‘stick to the opponent, smothering the others’ power and destroying their balance.
-Tim Cartmell, https://grounddragonma.com/tai-ji-quan/ or if you prefer http://www.shenwu.com/taichi.htm

The basic solo training in Ba Gua Zhang is designed to teach the practitioner how to control his or her momentum and timing in order to generate power with the entire body mass as a coherent unit. In the Chinese martial arts, this type of power is referred to as whole body power (Zheng Ti Jing). Whole body power enables the practitioner to issue force from any part of the body with the support of all other parts. Each part of the body coordinates with every other, generating the maximum amount of power available relative to the individual’s size and weight. Whole body power is applied in all categories of Ba Gua Zhang techniques, striking, kicking, grappling and throwing.
-Tim Cartmell, https://grounddragonma.com/ba-gua-zhang/ or http://www.shenwu.com/bagua.htm

Does that help explain Zheng Ti Jin?
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby windwalker on Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:09 pm

Fa Xing wrote:
Does that help explain Zheng Ti Jin?


From his point of view yes...
not one I would agree with.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:14 pm

Fa Xing wrote:So right of the top of my head, the initial movement in Lazily Tying Up the Clothes (Lan Zhi Yi) at the very start of the form following Tai Ji is the best and easiest example of pengjin.


Every Tai Chi has an opening movement, raise hands. That is not what I asked about. Generally across the form, where and how is pengjin expressed in the Sun (Jianyun) Tai chi form? I thought you studied Sun Tai chi, you should know.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Appledog on Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:24 am

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby charles on Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:58 am

Appledog wrote:Since some people here have been around since the early/mid ninties, it is quite a wonder then how people are still so confused about peng.


Okay, I'll bite.

For me, what is quite a wonder is not how people are so confused about Peng. Quite the contrary. Nearly every Taijiquan "player" knows exactly what Peng is - just ask them. The wonder-part is that relatively few have the same definition. Heck, people can't even agree on who's the boat and who's the water. ???


The trouble people get into is that peng is in fact a directional force so-to-speak, and thus, it must be applied against a force in order to be effective.This is the trip up which causes people to go 1000 miles off course.


One of the "troubles people get into" is that classical literature on the subject describes two different things with the same term. There is "Peng" the overall, omnipresent body "quality" and there is "Peng" the directional action that has as its basis the omnipresent body quality.

If you visualize the path of the energy it is along the arm, sent by the muscles, along the length of the arm. This method of training can not produce peng jing because this method of training will produce a dead force that can always be redirected -- because it travels in a straight line....This turning motion will illuminate the same pathway as straight-forward force but the mechanism and application of force will be different. The goal then is to congeal this energy so that it drives not along the physical application of force but the illuminated application of force. One can immediately see that many years of training would be necessary to achieve this even on a local basis.... Thus making the circle smaller is really just the process of aligning the big circle 90 degrees on-axis with the illuminated pathway of force.


I've been doing this a long time. I've yet to reach the level that my spiralling motion "illuminates" some otherwise dark garden pathway. I've also never been able to "congeal" energy. (What does it mean to "congeal" energy and by what mechanism?)

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but I think you are trying to say that the "dead force" is a linear application, while the "illuminated" force is a helical motion: it it acts along the longitudinal axis while also rotating (twisting). And, a helical application of force can't be redirected, while a linear one can, which isn't true in practical terms.


You must strictly adhere to the orthodox terms, orthodox usage, and orthodox forms as taught to you by your teacher or you will never understand and fall into illusion.


Your descriptions, above, do not adhere to the "orthodox" terms. Does that imply you don't understand and have fallen into illusion?

Taijiquan, and its skills, are experiential. To communicate those experiences, people use words to describe and explain what they feel and do. The words are inadequate to the task. (Describe for me the color blue, for example, or the feeling of pain.) The words are not the experience, the map is not the terrain. Similarly, it is not the "orthodox" forms that matter, but what those forms are filled with. Traditionally, that has been learned from first-hand experience with a skilled teacher, one who can help guide the student's experience to arrive at those specific skills.

Today's circumstances are not so much that one doesn't adhere to "orthodox" terms and forms, but that many have attempted to learn the art without sufficient, prolonged exposure to skilled teachers. Learning from a book or video, makes a difficult task all that more difficult, as does getting distracted by trying to figure out who is the boat and who is the water.

It is the nature of us martial artists to ignore the near and reach for the far.


There is probably nothing "special" about "us martial artists" in this regard: many people " ignore the near and reach for the far".

If you have not mastered something like ba duan jin you should seek out a qualified master and just work on the basics.


If one hasn't mastered the basics, it is good advice to study with someone who has. However, given that many "qualified masters" diverge on what they think Peng is, one shouldn't be surprised if doing so doesn't create consensus. What it should do, is provide one with the necessary basic skills.

If you come here to me I will show you for free, of course, you get what you pay for (i.e. i'm not a master, but I know what this thing is).


That is a kind and generous offer.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:00 pm

The two types of pengo confuse most,one for solo practice and the other for application
I think you will find the directional thing is unique to Chen style
I am not sure wether it is a theory that all Chen stylists adhere to
It is something I had not heard of till quite recently,how long has this theory been around for
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:09 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The two types of pengo confuse most,one for solo practice and the other for application


Are they really so different?

I think you will find the directional thing is unique to Chen style


In this thread one Yang practitioner and one Sun stylist defined peng as upward force.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:06 pm

One describes structure the other energy yet you must have the first to manifest the second
At the start of the yang form there are 4 distinct examples of Peng shown as ward off
The first is raise hands double upward Peng
Then a small Peng with the right hand lateral energy Peng
Then a step out with the right leg and a lateral Peng
Finally ward off slanting up full extended Peng travelling forward /up /right
This is the most yang movement in the entire form.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby cloudz on Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:12 am

"he can be uprooted and made to float without difficulty"
from the song of peng

I think, what you see is not always what you get.

ps. that should probably read, what you get is not always what you see.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:32 am

Peng is strength. The mystery of peng is the mystery of strength: namely, that it is both a general quality and an energy which manifests under certain conditions and through specific actions. How to have such a consistent strength that it manifests instantly on touch and and causes your opponent to "float" so as to be uprooted easily? Don't wiggle, don't shift, don't turn, only extend and retract directly into you opponent. If you can transmit the force of your extension/retraction consistently into your opponent, then they will feel bound up and surrounded by your strength, like a boat supported by water. Peng is strength. It is the force which the body generates from within its own internal actions in order to contract and expand in size, to extend and retract. Every other use of force depends on some sort of external movement of the body as a whole, throwing ones mass into the action, this means you do not have "peng". Does this mean the bigger your muscles the more peng you have? no, it is the extension and retraction which generates the peng not simply muscle size.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby charles on Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:33 am

rojcewiczj wrote:Peng is strength.



It's official: we're back in the mid 1990's. :o

Peng is strength...but how does that differ from "regular strength" that everyone has in daily life?...OH, it's INTERNAL strength, which is different from BRUTE strength...And what is INTERNAL strength and how is it different from other "strength?... "Internal strength" is the kind of loose, relaxed, steel-in-cotton strength that is the basis of "internal" martial arts... "internal strength" is Peng jin, or "neijin"... The circle is complete, to a Bee Gee's sound track.


From: https://www.taijigongfa.com/single-post ... -TaiJiQuan

1. The True "wai rou nei gang" (Externally Soft and Internally Hard)
Grandmaster Hong said, "taijiquan is peng-jin", meaning taijiquan is the fist of ward-off jin and if there is no peng-jin then there is no taijiquan. Peng-jin (outward radial jin) is the basis of all the taijiquan martial techniques. In fact, many taijiquan masters, such as Chen Fa-ke and Yang Cheng-fu, had made similar proposal. They emphasised that one should attain peng-jin in taijiquan training, until it developed into the stage of "externally soft and internally hard".

Some taijiquan practitioners emphasise relaxation and softness, and disagree on the emphasis of peng-jin. They say that the practice of peng-jin adversely affects the relaxation and softness, and as a result ding-jin (opposing jin) may occur in the push-hands. In fact, the reason for saying that is mainly due to their lack of correct understanding of peng-jin, and do not know what peng-jin actually is. They think that peng-jin is the stretching out of the torso and the limbs in a circular manner that looks elastic. There are also people who misunderstand Chen style taijiquan, thinking that there are fa-jin movements in the tao-lu (forms), and these movements must utilise brute force and must be very firm and hard. If one has had the opportunity to see how Grandmaster Hong demonstrated the Chen style taijiquan routines, and to practice push-hands with him, then he will have a new understanding of the peng-jin and Chen style taijiquan.

Grandmaster Hong emphasised the need to loosen up every single joint of the body (this instruction was originally said by Grandmaster Chen Fa-ke). Only then could one maintain the peng-jin within the softness. This kind of opening up of the joints should come naturally without intentionally stretching the muscles with strength. Grandmaster Hong specifically emphasised the need to open up the finger joints which should not be bent and slack. Furthermore, attention should be paid to their direction and angle of opening up. Previously when I read Grandmaster Hong's manuscripts, in regard to the need to match the fingers pointing directions with certain kind of motions, it made me feel hard to comprehend. It seemed that these kind of recommendations were troublesome. Later when I studied under Grandmaster Hong, I then gradually realised that the angle direction of opening up the fingers should be adjusted according to the change of jin used in the motion. Only when this was done properly and then diu-jin (disconnected energy) and ding-jin (opposing energy) would not occur. The more I experimented with these techniques, the more interesting they became. Some people can perform the fa-jin movements in a form powerfully while practicing but their fingers are bent and slack in other relaxed and soft movements. This explains that the finger joints have not been opened up and peng-jin has been lost. When this situation occurs in the push-hands drill, an experienced opponent would seize this opportunity to break into your defence.

Many people agree that peng-jin should be attained in taijiquan training, but there are different opinions on how to achieve this. For instance, how would you respond by extending peng-jin when your opponent presses on one of your front arms. One of the usual practices is to extend your front arms as much as possible. The elbows do not touch the rib cage, as if there are springs placed under your armpits to stretch your front arms, wrists and palms in a circular manner. This will result your opponent's incoming jin to be lifted up. This can be regarded as a type of peng-jin, but it is a lower level, simple technique. Such peng-jin may seem to survive the pressure from the incoming jin but your opponent may make use of your extended jin by performing lu-jin (pull back). Over-extending of jin can make transitional changes relatively difficult and slow. For the same hand peng-jin technique, Grandmaster Hong would open up his shoulder joints by sinking the elbows downward while at the same time extending the fingers upward in order to open up the joints at the elbows, wrists and fingers. Such peng-jin was mainly generated by the pulling force in the opposite directions, upwards and downwards. There is neither forward opposing force nor backward retreating force that can be utilised by your opponent. When the attacking force is coming straight in, I will open up the joints sideways. Hong also suggested that one's elbows can touch his own rib cage when necessary. One may think the opponent's incoming force may transfer from your arms to your rib cage. In fact, it will not happen. Although the elbow may look like it is in contact with the ribs, the jin of the elbow is not loosely touching the rib but sunk down to maintain the peng-jin. There is still a tiny gap between the elbows and ribs. Your opponent's jin will not reach the ribs. The advantage of this is that it will give you more space to perform hua-jin (deflection jin) without ding-jin (opposing jin). The joints are opened up and articulate enough to make changes.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby everything on Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:43 pm

charles wrote:
rojcewiczj wrote:Peng is strength.



It's official: we're back in the mid 1990's. :o

Peng is strength...but how does that differ from "regular strength" that everyone has in daily life?...OH, it's INTERNAL strength, which is different from BRUTE strength...And what is INTERNAL strength and how is it different from other "strength?... "Internal strength" is the kind of loose, relaxed, steel-in-cotton strength that is the basis of "internal" martial arts... "internal strength" is Peng jin, or "neijin"... The circle is complete, to a Bee Gee's sound track.


From: https://www.taijigongfa.com/single-post ... -TaiJiQuan

1. The True "wai rou nei gang" (Externally Soft and Internally Hard)
Grandmaster Hong said, "taijiquan is peng-jin", meaning taijiquan is the fist of ward-off jin and if there is no peng-jin then there is no taijiquan. Peng-jin (outward radial jin) is the basis of all the taijiquan martial techniques. In fact, many taijiquan masters, such as Chen Fa-ke and Yang Cheng-fu, had made similar proposal. They emphasised that one should attain peng-jin in taijiquan training, until it developed into the stage of "externally soft and internally hard".

Some taijiquan practitioners emphasise relaxation and softness, and disagree on the emphasis of peng-jin. They say that the practice of peng-jin adversely affects the relaxation and softness, and as a result ding-jin (opposing jin) may occur in the push-hands. In fact, the reason for saying that is mainly due to their lack of correct understanding of peng-jin, and do not know what peng-jin actually is. They think that peng-jin is the stretching out of the torso and the limbs in a circular manner that looks elastic. There are also people who misunderstand Chen style taijiquan, thinking that there are fa-jin movements in the tao-lu (forms), and these movements must utilise brute force and must be very firm and hard. If one has had the opportunity to see how Grandmaster Hong demonstrated the Chen style taijiquan routines, and to practice push-hands with him, then he will have a new understanding of the peng-jin and Chen style taijiquan.

Grandmaster Hong emphasised the need to loosen up every single joint of the body (this instruction was originally said by Grandmaster Chen Fa-ke). Only then could one maintain the peng-jin within the softness. This kind of opening up of the joints should come naturally without intentionally stretching the muscles with strength. Grandmaster Hong specifically emphasised the need to open up the finger joints which should not be bent and slack. Furthermore, attention should be paid to their direction and angle of opening up. Previously when I read Grandmaster Hong's manuscripts, in regard to the need to match the fingers pointing directions with certain kind of motions, it made me feel hard to comprehend. It seemed that these kind of recommendations were troublesome. Later when I studied under Grandmaster Hong, I then gradually realised that the angle direction of opening up the fingers should be adjusted according to the change of jin used in the motion. Only when this was done properly and then diu-jin (disconnected energy) and ding-jin (opposing energy) would not occur. The more I experimented with these techniques, the more interesting they became. Some people can perform the fa-jin movements in a form powerfully while practicing but their fingers are bent and slack in other relaxed and soft movements. This explains that the finger joints have not been opened up and peng-jin has been lost. When this situation occurs in the push-hands drill, an experienced opponent would seize this opportunity to break into your defence.

Many people agree that peng-jin should be attained in taijiquan training, but there are different opinions on how to achieve this. For instance, how would you respond by extending peng-jin when your opponent presses on one of your front arms. One of the usual practices is to extend your front arms as much as possible. The elbows do not touch the rib cage, as if there are springs placed under your armpits to stretch your front arms, wrists and palms in a circular manner. This will result your opponent's incoming jin to be lifted up. This can be regarded as a type of peng-jin, but it is a lower level, simple technique. Such peng-jin may seem to survive the pressure from the incoming jin but your opponent may make use of your extended jin by performing lu-jin (pull back). Over-extending of jin can make transitional changes relatively difficult and slow. For the same hand peng-jin technique, Grandmaster Hong would open up his shoulder joints by sinking the elbows downward while at the same time extending the fingers upward in order to open up the joints at the elbows, wrists and fingers. Such peng-jin was mainly generated by the pulling force in the opposite directions, upwards and downwards. There is neither forward opposing force nor backward retreating force that can be utilised by your opponent. When the attacking force is coming straight in, I will open up the joints sideways. Hong also suggested that one's elbows can touch his own rib cage when necessary. One may think the opponent's incoming force may transfer from your arms to your rib cage. In fact, it will not happen. Although the elbow may look like it is in contact with the ribs, the jin of the elbow is not loosely touching the rib but sunk down to maintain the peng-jin. There is still a tiny gap between the elbows and ribs. Your opponent's jin will not reach the ribs. The advantage of this is that it will give you more space to perform hua-jin (deflection jin) without ding-jin (opposing jin). The joints are opened up and articulate enough to make changes.


When one works on zhan zhuang and simply "holds the ball" one can feel this kind of "energy" and "joints open" or "extend" or "expand" with the "invisible ball" kind of holding your arms aloft rather than having a feeling of any muscular exertion (obviously muscles are commanded by the nervous system and brain to hold them there, but is there something that makes this easier? who knows.) after a bit of practice. It seems good to have this subjective peng sensation with one's own arms before having peng with a training partner's arm providing any resistance. To use a bad analogy, it also seems helpful to bounce a tennis ball on your racquet before learning to serve or volley.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:31 pm

I have had many people who come to me who have been holding the ball for years and achieved nothing
It's not what you do but how you do it
Just like all things a little instruction never goes astray
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby everything on Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:42 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I have had many people who come to me who have been holding the ball for years and achieved nothing
It's not what you do but how you do it
Just like all things a little instruction never goes astray


bouncing a tennis ball on your racquet or a football on your foot also does nothing on its own, but if you can't even do that I'm not sure how you can play tennis or football is all i'm saying. it seems similar and maybe more so to me. otherwise anyone can just hold a good structure and instantly have peng. I realize some people think that's all there is to it, like Brady's pliability being only one easy thing. -shrug-
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