Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:32 pm

I worded that badly
What I should have said is
They have ingrained mistakes due to lack of proper instruction
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:19 pm

Many have used the term "whole body strength" seemingly to imply that it is somehow different
then any other activity requiring force derived from the body...

for those using this term can you explain or clarify the differences between those that do
and those that do not not. Do boxers for example use or move with "whole body strength"
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Steve James on Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:48 pm

The answer was, is, and always will be "IHTBF." And that's a far on the wayback peng machine I'm gonna go. Anyone from the period will be able to explain.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby charles on Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:37 pm

The expression was, "It has to be shown". The premise was that people would get together and physically share/demonstrate stuff, and experience it first-hand, then those involved would have a common experience that could be discussed on-line.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Steve James on Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 pm

Um, I thought it was specifically "It has to be Felt." And, the point was that if any teacher said he had "peng", that he should let you physically put your hands on and feel --particularly the dantien. As I recall, there was little of the feeling that it was a matter of sharing. It was a straight out test, no friendlier than the debates on the discussion boards of the time.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:14 am

everything wrote:bouncing a tennis ball on your racquet or a football on your foot also does nothing on its own, but if you can't even do that I'm not sure how you can play tennis or football is all i'm saying.


If people don't understand the word "bouncing" they might just try to balance the ball on their racket or foot and believe they are bouncing. Yu must understand the word and concept of an action before you can do it.


otherwise anyone can just hold a good structure and instantly have peng.


For peng, you need to first be able to sink, you need to be able to relax all of your strength down to your feet. Otherwise what you do might be something you can fool others with who don't understand peng. But it will not be real peng.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby charles on Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:26 am

Steve James wrote:Um, I thought it was specifically "It has to be Felt." And, the point was that if any teacher said he had "peng", that he should let you physically put your hands on and feel --particularly the dantien. As I recall, there was little of the feeling that it was a matter of sharing. It was a straight out test, no friendlier than the debates on the discussion boards of the time.


If you are referring to the long defunct Neijia List (discussion forum), it was, "It has to be shown". The point was, as I stated, to create a common first-hand experience as the basis for discussion, in a time before Youtube and video sharing was common. It wasn't about testing each other so much as having a common experience to which to apply words. (For example, people who had met, as many did, knew exactly what each other meant when they discussed Peng jin, synonymous with "Ground Path". Forum members met other forum members and learned what that was and how to do it.)

That is not to be confused with the "Teacher Test", a simple, crude, means of determining if a teacher had "internal" mechanics, rather than just using localized force generated from the arm itself. (The test consisted of having the teacher place his or her hand on your shoulder and then strik you without first withdrawing his or her arm.) The test, created/proposed by Mike Sigman, wasn't intended to determine skill level, just whether or not the practitioner had any sense of how to power a strike using an "internal" mechanism: it was a go/no-go gauge.

As for being "friendly", not it wasn't particularly. Often it was, "Oh, so-and-so is a fake and uses "external" strength", or "He isn't doing real internal arts"... It did provide a means of meeting people similarly struggling to figure out what it was about and train/practice with them. How effective it was at helping people figure out what it was about is a different question.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby origami_itto on Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:35 am

I haven't actually watched this yet, I just think that according to the name it will be something good to continue arguing about.

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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bao on Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:41 am

oragami_itto wrote:I haven't actually watched this yet, I just think that according to the name it will be something good to continue arguing about.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDDlzV4rUWg


He doesn’t speak about “jin.” He speaks about the movement Peng, not about the quality pengjin that is inherent in every movement or is the foundation of the other Jins.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Steve James on Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:46 am

That is not to be confused with the "Teacher Test", a simple, crude, means of determining if a teacher had "internal" mechanics, rather than just using localized force generated from the arm itself.


Actually, I was referring to alt.rec/martial arts (or something like that) which was before the Neijialist to which I never belonged. The point of IHTBF was that just looking was not sufficient. I recall distinctly that it was suggested that anyone who couldn't pass the feeling test was not teaching "real" tcc.

The neijia list, iirc, was formed after the infamous Chen village phs tournament of 1995(?).
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Bhassler on Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:25 am

Regardless of the original intent, the main usage of IHTBS/F was to weasel out of a conversation when the self-proclaimed experts found themselves faced with ideas or questions which they were unwilling and/or unable to answer.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby rojcewiczj on Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:03 pm

The less you toss, the more you come to utilize peng. People give up or never begin, because they can't stop throwing their weight into their actions. Peng is full when your external actions and your joint rotations are the same thing. Meaning there is no movement made which you are not powering consistantly. At first this causes a reduction to local, single limb segment power. Over time, this dedication to joint powered actions creates longer and longer connections. The maximum being the application of the hand to foot joint chain.
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby charles on Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:11 pm

Steve James wrote:Actually, I was referring to alt.rec/martial arts


My mistake, sorry. I didn't participate much in the early alt.rec/martial arts and the like.

I recall distinctly that it was suggested that anyone who couldn't pass the feeling test was not teaching "real" tcc..


That was certainly a common theme and often still is: "Nobody but me does the real thing".


Bhassler wrote:Regardless of the original intent, the main usage of IHTBS/F was to weasel out of a conversation when the self-proclaimed experts found themselves faced with ideas or questions which they were unwilling and/or unable to answer.


:o
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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby Dmitri on Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 pm

Don't you people forget: there was, and is, and probably will always/ever be, only one man in the Universe who does "real taiji", -- and he doesn't even "do taiji", at that! His name shall not be spoken here, because it's like saying "Voldemort"... Oops.

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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:26 pm

I agree with the monk
All men are brothers and if everyone sends me their address and birthday I will send you each a present
Saying that his explanation does not live up to the his lengthy justification preamble
The bottom of the beach ball is but one direction and type of Peng
When he shows it his moves are very simple mechanics on a cooperative dummy
Just go and look at him doing the Chen form in his monk costume it says it all
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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