the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

OK, but then that quote from Ma Yueliang seems to contradict what Charles just said. Then again, if the underlying meaning is in fact Very Important, per Ma Yueliang, then what secrets does a "container for arrows" hold for interpreting "peng"? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Still haven't heard anyone say definitively "yes" or "no" as to whether it is onomatopoeic. Any opinions about that? There seems to be a lot of association with springs or springiness. You all sure "peng" isn't just "boing"?

The origin seems to be "the container for arrows" that springs open, cunning architecture in cane. It gives
an insight. The simile's of a buoyant boat, a Daruma doll, or cane basket with bricks in the bottom, I've
found to be the most accurate. With no sinking (no ballast or bricks) one will just bounce around like an
idiot.
The onomatopoeic insight "boing" is applicable I believe.

If you picture a quiver with a cane lid pushed down into the top
Just like a waste paper bin that has a foot pedal to release the lid
In the place of the foot pedal it is released by pulling the shoulders forward and extending the back
One quick precise pung

Ed Ladnar wrote:Charles - if "peng" was chosen as jargon because it is an onomatopoeic representation of the subject...

It isn't. It is jargon. It has nothing to do with sounding like an action or a situation.

The Chinese speakers I have met pronounce the term as "pung". When Peng Jin is used/manifested, it makes no sound. Not "pung", not "bing", not "sprongue"...


Soooo, are you guys really trying to emulate the opening of the cover on a quiver of arrows? Is that your take-away understanding of what Peng Jin is and its practical value in the art of Taijiquan? How does knowing that the word can be used to describe the opening action of the cover of a quiver or arrows translate into practical, traditional skills? Inquiring minds, 'n' all.

As an aside, "borrowing strength" is commonly-used Taijiquan jargon. It has no defined meaning, for example, in physics or structural engineering. See Martin's translation of an article on that subject in another thread.

pew pew pew is the jing that floats your sinking boat :D

charles wrote:

Ed Ladnar wrote:Charles - if "peng" was chosen as jargon because it is an onomatopoeic representation of the subject...

It isn't. It is jargon. It has nothing to do with sounding like an action or a situation.

The Chinese speakers I have met pronounce the term as "pung". When Peng Jin is used/manifested, it makes no sound. Not "pung", not "bing", not "sprongue"...


Soooo, are you guys really trying to emulate the opening of the cover on a quiver of arrows? Is that your take-away understanding of what Peng Jin is and its practical value in the art of Taijiquan? How does knowing that the word can be used to describe the opening action of the cover of a quiver or arrows translate into practical, traditional skills? Inquiring minds, 'n' all.

As an aside, "borrowing strength" is commonly-used Taijiquan jargon. It has no defined meaning, for example, in physics or structural engineering. See Martin's translation of an article on that subject in another thread.

NO one suggested that peng makes any sound. If that is your take away from a onomatopeic simile eg pung boing = springyness........really means it makes a sound like boing! you're infantile or infantalizing. I think the latter.

yeah verily it is jargon specific to tai chi, ie springyness of a balanced structure.

One can mindfuck ad infinitum....seriously instead of trying to confuse and confound, I think it is more honest to speak from your personal experience, though Nothing said will be understood by all without error, some will get it, because it resonates with their experience. Not to say that their experience will make a sound or echo a sound, just because I used the word
resonate.

掤 - the right side is "peng" as in Pengyou, friend. The left side is the "hand" radical". It does seem like jargon, as if you want to write that character in pinyin entry via Microsoft, you have to type "bing". (Dictionary Meaning = arrow quiver)

Ozguorui wrote:掤 - the right side is "peng" as in Pengyou, friend. The left side is the "hand" radical". It does seem like jargon, as if you want to write that character in pinyin entry via Microsoft, you have to type "bing". (Dictionary Meaning = arrow quiver)

That makes sense to me ...I doubt an enemy will hand you an arrow quiver.

Maybe some dialect thing like lan zha yi vs lan que wei ....

slowEdie wrote: you're infantile or infantalizing. I think the latter.

Thank you, I appreciate the diagnosis.

And I appreciate your honesty...

Nine pages of boats, water, quiver of arrows, baskets, paperbins. As a forum member posted on another tread "Peng Jin is not to be talked about its to be felt" or something like that. People really want to understand Peng Jin by word?........Far far away from being a linguist,"onomatopoeic" is a new word for me....Is "Ouch" a onomatopoeic word? Maybe Ouch! is a "word" being expressed in situations where Peng Jin is involved?

Trick wrote:Nine pages of boats, water, quiver of arrows, baskets, paperbins. As a forum member posted on another tread "Peng Jin is not to be talked about its to be felt" or something like that. People really want to understand Peng Jin by word?........Far far away from being a linguist,"onomatopoeic" is a new word for me....Is "Ouch" a onomatopoeic word? Maybe Ouch! is a "word" being expressed in situations where Peng Jin is involved?

I my experience that comes a bit later (ouch) , usually the first utterance is more akin to wtf.

IHTBF applies and all of the descriptions I've read here are not wrong, maybe incomplete for some.
But as in most of the more interesting experiences.....more words count less

charles wrote:It isn't. It is jargon. It has nothing to do with sounding like an action or a situation.

The Chinese speakers I have met pronounce the term as "pung". When Peng Jin is used/manifested, it makes no sound. Not "pung", not "bing", not "sprongue"...

Interesting, the native speakers I interact with all pronounce it as pung jin, Writing it as peng jin,
kind of goes against what they say and I use when we speak about it. there is also a "bing jin" which is different.

Lots of boats floated, and water being thrown around here.
Maybe you can help them to understand what buoyant force is and the difference between it
and normal force as used in physics.



Someone mentioned sinking....sinking is sinking not buoyancy .

If the air is treated as water, as Cheng Man Ching once alluded to "Swimming in air and feeling the resistance of the air as if you are in water"
it will tie a lot of what has been said together regarding "pung" jin if one understands what "buoyant force" is.

Trick wrote:Nine pages of boats, water, quiver of arrows, baskets, paperbins. As a forum member posted on another tread "Peng Jin is not to be talked about its to be felt" or something like that. People really want to understand Peng Jin by word?........Far far away from being a linguist,"onomatopoeic" is a new word for me....Is "Ouch" a onomatopoeic word? Maybe Ouch! is a "word" being expressed in situations where Peng Jin is involved?

The OP started with

"What sort of training produces PJ? I suggest that it has as a prerequisite the elimination of unnecessary muscle tensions in the body. Some people practice static standing to develop PJ. Others use slow, "relaxed" forms practice. Others use slow, "relaxed" repetitive solo exercises.


How is PJ different than "structure"? I suggest that structure is required, without which we'd slump to the floor in a heap, but PJ is a non-rigid alignment of body parts that maintains an elastic sort of quality.


Is PJ unique to the practice of Taijiquan? No, not in my opinion.


And, what do you think Peng Jin is?


All good questions that don't require agreement. One is only stating a view point that they hold and practice with.

The real question to me regardless of ones view point is what does it enable one to do with it,
what can one not do with out it?

clips, always clips are asked for,

then when shown the focus becomes the clip itself and not what is being shown in the clip.
Which tends to confuse the original point of showing something that can not be done with out this quality .

"When he got to the other side, he said, “Excuse me, but you are saying that chant wrong. It is actually ‘Yah Hoo,’ not ‘Ah Yah Hoo.’”

“Thank you for telling me,” the other replied.

Then the first dervish began sailing back across the river, and thought to himself, “I really helped that man. He was wasting his efforts with that wrong chant, but now that I have set him straight, he can develop all the various powers that derive from that chant. And perhaps one day he can even reach the advanced stage of being able to walk on water.”

But just minutes later, the dervish was extremely annoyed to hear the other dervish once again chanting “Ah Yah Hoo.”

The first dervish though to himself, “I cannot believe how people can be so perverse and persistent in error.”

Then all of a sudden, he heard some noise and turned around, and saw the other dervish from across the sea walking on water and approaching him! The other dervish then said to him, “Excuse me, but I forgot how to say that chant properly. Please tell me again!”
http://www.rodneyohebsion.com/sufi-folktales.htm