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Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:25 am
by Bao
oragami_itto wrote:Seems a little bit off?
Peng is the foundation of the rest of the energies. No peng, no nothing.


How would you describe this foundation? What is it? Why do you need it for the rest of the energies?

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:39 am
by GrahamB
I think "Peng" and "Jin" get used in an interchangeable way most of the time because the most obvious and useful application of Jin is in an upward direction. Somebody pushes on you and the person bounces back (as we see in all those videos)

Image

Peng is using Jin in an upward direction
Ji is using it away from the body
Lu is using it towards the body
An is using it downwards

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:40 am
by origami_itto
I described it in my previous post. It's not the structure, it's a byproduct of proper structure, i.e. the ability of the body to handle and manipulate force. It transmits force passively by actively adjusting to changing situations. It's like the force evident in the filled fire hose. Not the water, but the strength of the water.

You need it because it is what is manipulated in order to produce the rest of them. Change the vector on one side or the other and adjust how much peng and lu is expressed and you've got ji, an, lie, cai, zhou, kao.

If tai chi is water, then it's still water supporting a boat. You step on the boat unevenly and it will dump you right over like lie. You jump into the dead center and it'll give and rebound a little like straight peng. A big wave washing over it and washing it away like an.

It's the bones of the art.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:57 am
by Bao
oragami_itto wrote:I described it in my previous post. It's not the structure, it's a byproduct of proper structure, i.e. the ability of the body to handle and manipulate force. It transmits force passively by actively adjusting to changing situations. It's like the force evident in the filled fire hose. Not the water, but the strength of the water.


Oh, I forgot you wrote something earlier. Remember it now. Well, I agree... sort of... or to a certain extent anyway. If it’s a byproduct of practice, it means that you need to practice correct. However, I would not call it a byproduct of correct structure, but rather of song/sung. Proper use of song needs a certain understanding of structure before it can be developed, but structure does not produce song.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:34 am
by origami_itto
As I said in the previous post, byproduct of proper structure and property relaxation (aka song) and yes song doesn't mean relax but properly relaxed is how I describe it

EDIT: And proper structure/relaxation is cultivated through proper practice, Bao. :D

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:40 am
by charles
Dmitri wrote:Hey Charles, the late 90s just called, asking for the thread title back... ;D


I think it was the mid-90's. At least it was for me. ;-)

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:49 am
by Ron Panunto
Most of what is being discussed in this thread, I prefer to call "neijin," which is a force that pervades the entire body. "Pengjin" on the other hand is application of force in an upward direction. Adopting this terminology should get rid of a lot of confusion.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:08 pm
by wayne hansen
Ting gin is the foundation of Peng gin not the other way around
Just like to answer a question you must first listen to it
Peng is ting with attitude
Just as the fingers must feel the guitar string first before it can be plucked
All energies in tai chi come out of listening
They can be used without listening but this is just dumb force
Hit and miss
It may be many things but it is not tai chi

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:23 pm
by Bhassler
If I push someone else over, it was Peng Jin. If they push me over, it was brute muscular force.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:57 pm
by origami_itto
I can get behind that to an extent. Listening to ones own frame to cultivate Peng. We were speaking in relation to others which development in my opinion follows Peng

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:04 pm
by Bao
Ron Panunto wrote:"Pengjin" on the other hand is application of force in an upward direction. Adopting this terminology should get rid of a lot of confusion.


Moving or applying force in an upward direction is too simplistic IMO. A movement that anyone can do is not called "jin". The term "Jin" implies that it's a skill that needs time and practice to develop.

wayne hansen wrote:Ting gin is the foundation of Peng gin not the other way around
Just like to answer a question you must first listen to it
Peng is ting with attitude


Agreed. 8-)

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:35 pm
by LaoDan
Bao wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:"Pengjin" on the other hand is application of force in an upward direction. Adopting this terminology should get rid of a lot of confusion.


Moving or applying force in an upward direction is too simplistic IMO. A movement that anyone can do is not called "jin". The term "Jin" implies that it's a skill that needs time and practice to develop.

I do not particularly like describing the 4 primary jin as directions, although I can see how it could make the concept easy for some people. To me, peng is up due to it being produced from the contact of our feet with the ground and out through our structure (our structure is above the point of contact with the ground). Part of the up quality is embodied in Xuling Dingjin (虛領頂勁), or energy to the crown of the head; but there is a certain way that this energy through the body is produced, and we are therefore instructed not to use force to raise the head top. Raising the crown of the head forcefully up in this example would not be peng, although the direction would certainly be up. Just stating the direction “up” is far from satisfactory to describe pengjin, at least for me.

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:29 pm
by Dmitri
charles wrote:
Dmitri wrote:Hey Charles, the late 90s just called, asking for the thread title back... ;D


I think it was the mid-90's. At least it was for me. ;-)

Yeah you were already pretty active on the neijia list when I joined... Think it was '97 or 98...

Holy crap, that's 20 years ago... :o

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:56 pm
by yeniseri
I have felt it but am unable to express it or show it based on my inability to find someone who can structurally and didactically show it to me.
It is my inability, no less, to be able to show and break apart the many level of it, despite the youtube or other version of how it is.

Due to the few who can show it (usually family members of great teachers along with blood relative (some), I am not convinced that it is even a valid expression of skill! Not negating the wonderful expression of those who possess that exquisite skill. I have seen enough of non taijiquan skill level practitioners who have given those same experts a 'run for their life" meaning the skill can be taught!

Re: Just what the heck is Peng Jin anyway?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:47 pm
by johnwang
yeniseri wrote:I am not convinced that it is even a valid expression of skill!

Agree! If you can't use Peng Jin to kill your opponent, what's the value of training it? Why don't you just spend your training time to develop a powerful punch that can knock down your opponent if you need? Peng is push but Peng + foot scoop = throw.

No dependable finish move = no MA skill

There is a very important long fist training. You stand in a bow-arrow stance and punch one arm out. Your opponent uses his hand to push your forearm side way. If his push can make your

- elbow joint to bend, or shoulder joint to bend, you don't have Peng Jin.
- whole body to move side way, you have Peng Jin.

Even when a boxer punches on heavy bag, if the counter force can cause his

- arm to bend, he doesn't have Peng Jin.
- whole body to bounce back, he has Peng Jin.

To function the whole body as one unit and not to collapse on your joints is trained in all MA styles.