the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Bao wrote:Found an old link I had totally forgot about with a whole lot of quotes and resources. I like these quotes:


Zhang Yijun in his book where he quotes his teacher Li Yaxuan:

“ "Peng Jing is after long periods of sincere practice of Taijiquan and push hands, resulting in a type of sung (no tension) yet not sung, soft but carring in it hard, active but sunk and heavy, elastic and pliable type of jing, which includes sticking (nien), neutralising (hua), bouyant (fu), trapping (kun) usage type of jing, also called internal jing (neijing)". Also we have from myrid schools and students who hold "Taiji is peng jing, movement goes spiraling (luo xuan)" as the central maxim.”

Quoted from an interview with Yang Zhen Duo (son of Yang Cheng Fu) in T'ai Chi Magazine, vol 19. No. 5.:

"Normally, when we talk about peng( ward off)," Yang said, "we are not talking about the ward off in the the form .. the left ward off and right ward off. Peng is to intentionally let go and make the body loose so the body is connected. The inner feeling is that it is like there is a metal spring in the body. This is ward off"...

......

From: http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/pjcf.htm

.......

So for the old Yang masters at least, when they spoke about Pengjin, they didn’t mean a certain movement or a direction of force.

yep I would agree with that...although I would not use "metal spring" as this to me implies a direction.
Pung jin, Is expressed at all points and every point ie spherical.

There are qualities and type of reactions from movements that one can do with it, and not do with out it.

like this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75tHE4vmFo

windwalker wrote:yep I would agree with that...although I would not use "metal spring" as this to me implies a direction.

Agreed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75tHE4vmFo

Good clip. It shows both the expression of peng as the inherent quality of Jin and as an application of the movement peng.

Excerpt from a previous RSF thread, Do different styles of Taiji define 8 energies differently?, http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11653&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=90&sid=d763281dc31b9b4cca7efb95a77d9b3c:

bailewen on Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:15 pm wrote:Nice job cdobe! Particularly good job of keeping the wording close to the original without making it read like nonsense.

Just for kicks:

cdobe wrote:1. 掤劲义何解 How is the meaning of Pengjin explained[?]
2. 如水负行舟 Like water carrying a rowboat
3. 先实丹田气 First, [there has to be] solid[1] Dantian-Qi
4. 次要顶头悬 Then, the crown of the head must be suspended
5. 全体弹簧力 The entire body [possesses] springlike strength
6. 开合一定间 Opening and closing must have timing [2]
7. 任有千斤重 Allow 1000 lbs of weight to exist
8. 飘浮亦不难 Floating them isn't hard either[3]

bailewen wrote:1. How do we explain “peng”?
2. It is like the way water supports a boat
3. First, the dantian must be full of qi
4. Then the head must be suspended
5. The entire body expresses springy, elastic energy
6. Expansion and compression must be managed carefully
7. Even when there is 1000 lbs or pressure
8. Floating it is not difficult

Lee N. Scheele wrote:1. What is the meaning of Peng energy?
2. It is like the water supporting a moving boat.
3. First sink the ch'i to the tan-t'ien,
4. then hold the head as if suspended from above.
5. The entire body is filled with springlike energy,
6. opening and closing in a very quick moment.
7. Even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds of force,
8. he can be uprooted and made to float without difficulty.

Douglas Wile wrote:1. How can we explain the energy of Ward-Off?
2. It is like water which supports a moving boat.
3. First make the ch’i in the tan-t’ien substantial.
4. Then hold the head as if suspended from above.
5. The whole body has the power of a spring.
6. Opening and closing should be clearly defined.
7. Even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds of force,
8. We will float lightly and without difficulty.

Arrow Quiver Jin (掤勁)

TaijiAcademy
Published on Mar 15, 2017

掤勁是太極拳的總勁，並不是用力往前往上推，而是由身體重量從腳底反彈所產生，如蒸氣一樣瀰漫全身。對方感受就如在水中浮起，腳跟離地，不能自已。有說掤勁是往前往上的勁有誤導成份。
"Pang Jin", ward off, is the main power of Taijiquan and is not just using brute force to push upward and to the front. Pang Jin is generated from the body weight rebounding from the soles, rising up like steam that reaches every parts of the body. The person who is affected by Pang Jin has a feeling of floating in the water and lifted off the ground. There have been some sayings that Pang Jin is the force pushing forward and upward are misleading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHLzYnJf_1U

捋勁

TaijiAcademy
Published on Mar 23, 2017

What is Jin? Guidance is also before. Instead of guiding each other's body, they guide his power. Force to follow the body naturally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkF5gLsdLFo

4 and 5 are the best translations of the song
I feel T T Liangs one is better than both
The above 3 clips are nothing more than base mechanics against hard Static dummies
Can you show anyone using it in pushing against a skilled enquiring opponent

I remember back in the day when chi was the great mystery

wayne hansen wrote:4 and 5 are the best translations of the song
I feel T T Liangs one is better than both
The above 3 clips are nothing more than base mechanics against hard Static dummies
Can you show anyone using it in pushing against a skilled enquiring opponent

The old skilled opponent retort.

Why not just post a clip of what you feel it is used in the setting that you ask of others.

If I was discussing a fumble in football would you ask me to demonstrate
I know I could easily reproduce any of the things shown in the above 3 clips
Apart from that I could show any layman how to produce them with little training

wayne hansen wrote:If I was discussing a fumble in football would you ask me to demonstrate
I know I could easily reproduce any of the things shown in the above 3 clips
Apart from that I could show any layman how to produce them with little training

No doubt, it just remains to be seen.

wayne hansen wrote:4 and 5 are the best translations of the song
I feel T T Liangs one is better than both
The above 3 clips are nothing more than base mechanics against hard Static dummies
Can you show anyone using it in pushing against a skilled enquiring opponent

May not be resistant opponents. However, these videos may illustrate peng jin in push hands?

Liang De Hua Taijiquan
Published on Aug 2, 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyQPI4GmNRE

adfeatherstone
Published on Sep 16, 2015

Wu (武) taijiquan; Zhai Weichuan Shifu teaching push hands:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7xEW283EKU

They are closer to the mark
It is not resistance I ask for it is reality
Someone doesn't take a stance and resist in a knife fight
They look to avoid the blade and take control or eliminate the threat
That is how it should be in pushing
The student or contender for want of a better word,should be trying to take advantage
Not just doing the drill waiting for the result
They should be active in the game
This is to the teachers advantage he has real energy to work with
Peng cannot work on a brass man or on a ghost

wayne hansen wrote:They are closer to the mark
It is not resistance I ask for it is reality
Someone doesn't take a stance and resist in a knife fight
They look to avoid the blade and take control or eliminate the threat

That is how it should be in pushing
The student or contender for want of a better word,should be trying to take advantage
Not just doing the drill waiting for the result
They should be active in the game
This is to the teachers advantage he has real energy to work with
Peng cannot work on a brass man or on a ghost

odd they show and do the same things as in the other clips, and yet they are closer to the mark which would be?
All are demos, that cant be it. They are a type of training drill,,,nope that can't be it.

All are very active,,,I don't know if they would call it a "game" maybe thats it,,,its not a game.
The reality that you speak of, is that its not a game...they are not trying or should not be trying to win...as in a game..

As to how its used which you alluded to "knife fight" , examples save a lot of typing....

wayne hansen wrote:They are closer to the mark
It is not resistance I ask for it is reality
Someone doesn't take a stance and resist in a knife fight
They look to avoid the blade and take control or eliminate the threat
That is how it should be in pushing
The student or contender for want of a better word,should be trying to take advantage
Not just doing the drill waiting for the result
They should be active in the game
This is to the teachers advantage he has real energy to work with
Peng cannot work on a brass man or on a ghost

You're going to like Adam Mizners new martial man interview

marvin8 thanks for the videos and previous quotes, man.

Even in demos the student should attack as much as the teacher
Even if they don't attack the should at least defend
In none of the above clips do they do either
They just merry go round and float away

先实丹田气 - no mention of "sinking" there......(probably not good to mention sinking in conjunction with boats anyway....)

"First, realize dantian qi"