The "Fake" stuff...

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby RobP3 on Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:11 am

windwalker wrote:
RobP3 wrote:
Yep, been there, done that :) I also visited many others, in fact I spent the last half and the 90s and beyond visiting many different schools and teachers, some of whom you have put clips up of here. I can say, hand on heart, that the "empty force" as explained and demonstrated by those teachers failed 100% of the time on myself or friends/students who were with me. Back in the day it even failed with my own teacher, prior to me leaving him, when he started getting into all this stuff, all explained as "chi energy". There was some interesting stuff from Vincent Chu, which he always stressed was purely on a meditation level. He explained to me that what you see in clips are things that only work between teacher and student, they do not go beyond that.

The only no contact work I have experienced "for real" is that demonstrated by those who explain it in purely psychological terms, ranging from basic "flinch reaction" to more subtle manipulation of intention and awareness. Or, on a more physical level, the control of tension / fear in another person.

So yep, BTDT.


Which is all good, I too have visited teachers and have come to different conclusions about what, how and why it works
I've spent the last 10 or so yrs looking into this and have come up with my own thoughts reasonings about it. ....as I've always said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same. No need to go into that here.

So in essence the ones you agree with that did work considered as valid is what you agree with.



No. You are putting the cart before the horse. I went into each encounter with an open mind. The ones that did work gave an explanation as to how and why it worked, along the lines of what I wrote above. Furthermore they show you how to do it.
The ones that didn't work gave an explanation prior to trying as to what it was they were doing, usually along the lines of "I am going to project my energy to..."
When it failed to work, they gave an excuse as to why it didn't work. These ranged from "bad energy spots in the room" to "you don't have enough chi" and many others.

I encountered this work initially with my first teacher. It began as something interesting but soon became apparent that his "successes" were the result of careful selection of target and subtle, or not so subtle, conditioning / grooming of the student. So he would, for example, ask a couple of the "special students" to punch him in the stomach. They tried, stopped six inches short of contact, spasmed and fell to the ground. He asked me, I punched him in the stomach. An honest punch, I did exactly what he asked. At the time I was senior to those other guys but guess who got used for all the public demos :)
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby windwalker on Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:36 am

RobP3 wrote:
No. You are putting the cart before the horse. I went into each encounter with an open mind. The ones that did work gave an explanation as to how and why it worked, along the lines of what I wrote above. Furthermore they show you how to do it.

Good its something I would expect of you reading and looking at some of your work.
The ones that didn't work gave an explanation prior to trying as to what it was they were doing, usually along the lines of "I am going to project my energy to..."
When it failed to work, they gave an excuse as to why it didn't work. These ranged from "bad energy spots in the room" to "you don't have enough chi" and many others.

Lets examine this. Is it fake because it didn't work on you and yet it worked on the other students the teacher felt it worked and gave an explanation for why it didn't or do you feel that the teacher was intentionally deceiving the students. As to the teachers explanation it sounds vague which is why I tend to use and base everything on physics and examine it from that perspective. Other aspects are brought into it once a solid foundation has been developed

I encountered this work initially with my first teacher. It began as something interesting but soon became apparent that his "successes" were the result of careful selection of target and subtle, or not so subtle, conditioning / grooming of the student. So he would, for example, ask a couple of the "special students" to punch him in the stomach. They tried, stopped six inches short of contact, spasmed and fell to the ground. He asked me, I punched him in the stomach. An honest punch, I did exactly what he asked. At the time I was senior to those other guys but guess who got used for all the public demos :)


Again are saying your old teacher intentionally did this so there for what he did was fake? What you've mentioned about demos happens and can happen with any teacher that tends to teach or give demos...a little different for others that are not so public about their work and use it.

For me it was some 20 or so yrs before I encountered anyone who did this type of work, just happened by accident in my examination of taiji as a practice. not something I looked for...At this point in my work I no longer call what I do taiji feeling the term and usage has kind of been corrupted. Odd in a way as most I met consider my work to be in line with what they expect taiji to be like :-\ https://journeytoemptiness.com/2018/01/ ... -no-taiji/


When it failed to work, they gave an excuse as to why it didn't work. These ranged from "bad energy spots in the room" to "you don't have enough chi" and many others.
Yep heard them all, and could explain what they might be trying to say in a different way...wouldn't make much difference unless one worked in this area, which if they did they would know and understand no need to explain.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby Trick on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:14 am

Back when I had just moved to Dalian I had arranged to meet a Yang-taijiquan teacher in one of the local parks. When I arrived I saw from a distance a man effortless bouncing away a younger man just seemingly light touch, I understood that was the teacher I was going to meet because they occupied that particular space in the park we had decided on, approaching with an open mind I just thought "hmmmm"....After introduction and I had showed what I knew he accepted me. We went throu some basic exercises and I began to learn the first couple of moves of the long form, after that he asked to touch hands. We pushed in an relaxed and even tempo, he began to apply joint locks which I countered and tried my own all still in an relaxed tempo but I could feel the teacher was skilled in joint manipulation and throwing(I had done some Aikido and JuJutsu in younger days), the tempo got quicker and quicker to the point where I could not follow and the teacher slowed down it al little and then gradually phase it up and so on. When we stopped we had gathered a small audience. The teacher was satisfied, I could tell he liked that kind of practice and I was satisfied because I found a teacher with skill...the young guy who bounced continued to come for practice for a couple of weeks but then stopped, the teacher had begun focus on the kind of exercise he did with me...My conclusion was kind of that many who wanted to study TJQ (especially Yang-TJQ ) just wanted the health side of it which is fine, actually I'm self mostly into it for that nowadays and there where those who wanted the "mystic power" it might hide....I'm still open minded to that there can be "mystic powers" involved, but if so I believe it will come out from years of real hand on practice.
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby Bugang on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:46 pm

----
Last edited by Bugang on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby Bugang on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:48 pm

RobP3 wrote:
windwalker wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:https://www.facebook.com/dumbassmartialarts/videos/943069625882252/


Its been shown before the teacher has a standing invitation for those wanting to understand it to come visit him.



Yep, been there, done that with the NY teacher :) I also visited many others, in fact I spent the last half and the 90s and beyond visiting many different schools and teachers, some of whom you have put clips up of here. I can say, hand on heart, that the "empty force" as explained and demonstrated by those teachers failed 100% of the time on myself or friends/students who were with me. Back in the day it even failed with my own teacher, prior to me leaving him, when he started getting into all this stuff, all explained as "chi energy". There was some interesting stuff from Vincent Chu, which he always stressed was purely on a meditation level. He explained to me that what you see in clips are things that only work between teacher and student, they do not go beyond that.

The only no contact work I have experienced "for real" is that demonstrated by those who explain it in purely psychological terms, ranging from basic "flinch reaction" to more subtle manipulation of intention and awareness. Or, on a more physical level, the control of tension / fear in another person.

So yep, BTDT.


C'mon, Rob!

Your "Been there , done that" , together with mentioning "empty force" which "failed 100 % on me", mixing that with mentioning your former teacher who talked about "chi energy" suggest a lot of assumtions to the unknowing reader that are counterfactual:

Your post suggests
-that the theacher in the video claimed using "empty force"(and that even for fighting) - which he did not at all!
In the video there are NO movements without contact/application, even if it may be hard to believe that the connection between the contact points of the two people is strong enough for the reactions happening.

-that he failed to use empty force on you - which, according to the fact that he never tried and never claimed, is of course also not true! (sure, you could say "he failed", because he didnt even try and had no intent to it whatsoever ;-)

-that he talked " esoteric energy language" or/and that he claimed using the training methodology of DynamicPushingHands as such in fight - which is also not true! (His explanations about the DPH training method on his website say absolutely the same as what you quoted Vincent Chu saying about it)

The worstly misleading is that your post (very indirectly) suggest that you were there and therewith PROVED (you finish with "BTDT") that what they do was a fake ( - whilst also letting it open to speculation, which way this would have happened - maybe by you not being affected by his PengJin? - or even by beating him up...? Or...?) .

Which, again, IS VERY FAR FROM THE TRUTH!

I happen to know a few people who were there - and without discussing details, I surely can state that in NO WAY you proved it not to be useful. Rather the opposite would be correct to state: evidence suggest that it (the DPH/Peng Jin Training Method, not "empty force"!!) worked quite well on you! (Which, rightly understood, would be a compliment for you, because it shows that your connection is good enough to work with this method)

I'ts o.k. if you think the method is worthless for you!
(I am sure that most of those who practice it are rather glad that others miss the chance to achieve the same rapid progress they get out of the training ;) ).

But please
-do not implicitly paint a false picture about events where quite some other witnesses were present and
-do not mix up "empty force Chi Grandmaster"-babble with what those earnest practicioners want to achieve by training in their way!
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby RobP3 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:45 am

Bugang wrote:
C'mon, Rob!

Your "Been there , done that" , together with mentioning "empty force" which "failed 100 % on me", mixing that with mentioning your former teacher who talked about "chi energy" suggest a lot of assumtions to the unknowing reader that are counterfactual:

Your post suggests
-that the theacher in the video claimed using "empty force"(and that even for fighting) - which he did not at all!


I didn't suggest that, read my post again.

Bugang wrote:

The worstly misleading is that your post (very indirectly) suggest that you were there and therewith PROVED (you finish with "BTDT") that what they do was a fake ( - whilst also letting it open to speculation, which way this would have happened - maybe by you not being affected by his PengJin? - or even by beating him up...? Or...?) .

Which, again, IS VERY FAR FROM THE TRUTH!

I happen to know a few people who were there -


And I was actually there

Bugang wrote: and without discussing details, I surely can state that in NO WAY you proved it not to be useful. Rather the opposite would be correct to state: evidence suggest that it (the DPH/Peng Jin Training Method, not "empty force"!!) worked quite well on you! (Which, rightly understood, would be a compliment for you, because it shows that your connection is good enough to work with this method)


Discuss as many details as you like. I've been over all this before. Did I react like the students in his clips? No.

Bugang wrote:
But please
-do not implicitly paint a false picture about events where quite some other witnesses were present and
-do not mix up "empty force Chi Grandmaster"-babble with what those earnest practicioners want to achieve by training in their way!


I didn't
Er...but that school also practice empty force. I trained with GSC and Vincent too.
I seemed to have touched a nerve regarding your school or teacher?
Upshot is, whether empty force or not it seems rare to see the same reaction from non-students as students. Vincent Chu said that too, I'm not sure why you should get so upset over it.
Last edited by RobP3 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby wiesiek on Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:41 am

if you like to move the mass on the Earth in the physical plane you HAVE to use the power,
it can be exclusively yours, borrowed from the object or in the combination of both.

.

speakin` so,
I experienced kinda of >empty force <, but not from the Fu teacher, it was Buddhist monk.
In fact it wasn`t only my impression, there was quite big amount of peps on the meeting.
everyone touched by him got it / on different levels/.
well,
using it in real fight? no, not likely
maybe one or two persons on this plane...
joyful usefullnes of the effords
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Re: The "Fake" stuff...

Postby driftwood on Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:28 am

I'm telling you guys if all the geezers on here spent more time training Spring FuckChi (the real authentic art of Spring FuckChi, not the fake Spring FuckChi demonstrated on the video) the discussions we would be having here on the RSF would be much more agreeable.

btw- I don't get to train the authentic Spring FuckChi these days as much as I'd like, but I can tell you without a doubt that I know it when I see it.
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