Marin Spivack interview

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Marin Spivack interview

Postby charles on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:30 pm

willie wrote: A discipleship is a huge life-long commitment that goes both ways. The teachers half of the commitment is to ensure that a complete transmission is accomplished. Which means that they do not withhold any skills or secrets.


Historically/traditionally, that might have been true but often isn't in today's world. Often, these days, it is a money-grab by the teacher and/or about building an organization. For some students, it's about having status. There are lots of examples, even with some of the biggest name teachers.

It is important to be clear that there are disciples and there are disciples. Being a disciple isn't an automatic guarantee of knowledge and skill or that all will be revealed to the disciple by the teacher. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. It depends upon the people involved and the specifics of their relationship, which can vary between one teacher and his various disciples.

My comments are general in nature and not aimed at anyone discussed in this thread.
Last edited by charles on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marin Spivack interview

Postby willie on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:33 pm

charles wrote:
willie wrote: A discipleship is a huge life-long commitment that goes both ways. The teachers half of the commitment is to ensure that a complete transmission is accomplished. Which means that they do not withhold any skills or secrets.


Historically/traditionally, that might have been true but often isn't in today's world. Often, these days, it is a money-grab by the teacher and/or about building an organization. For some students, it's about having status. There are lots of examples, even with some of the biggest name teachers.

It is important to be clear that there are disciples and there are disciples. Being a disciple isn't an automatic guarantee of knowledge and skill or that all will be revealed to the disciple by the teacher. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. It depends upon the people involved and the specifics of their relationship, which can vary between one teacher and his various disciples.


I have to agree with you, but I have a feeling that Moling's case is a bit more upfront.
Thanks for your reply.
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Re: Marin Spivack interview

Postby willie on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:46 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:I was mostly just kidding you. The ninja thing is sort of our ongoing fling. ;D

This is just a little piece of the original video that was shanghaied to empty flower. It is old school from around 2000.
The DVD i had it on. (the last copy) is badly scratched is has some nice clinch work if i can retrieve it somehow.
it is non-sport.

Last edited by willie on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Marin Spivack interview

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:30 pm

Thanks for sharing. Most of that was not bad. The most problematic stuff was when you were doing the bumping and arm control when your son had you in the mount.

However, there is no reason to think this is ninjitsu. Not that I believe in ninjitsu as a system of unarmed combat (taijitsu, or whatever).

Looks like some basic JJJ and Judo. Pretty good for 2000.
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Re: Marin Spivack interview

Postby willie on Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:13 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Thanks for sharing. Most of that was not bad. The most problematic stuff was when you were doing the bumping and arm control when your son had you in the mount.

However, there is no reason to think this is ninjitsu. Not that I believe in ninjitsu as a system of unarmed combat (taijitsu, or whatever).

Looks like some basic JJJ and Judo. Pretty good for 2000.
I never officially trained in ninjutsu, my old Shihan did. The eye gouging, Fish Hooks, biting, body handles, crushing the trachea all that came from ninjutsu. My old Shihan had Japanese jiu-jitsu, small Circle Jujitsu, Muay Thai, American kickboxing, probably a little bit of Judo, Greco-Roman wrestling and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. That old DVD has a lot more that I could Salvage including working from muay Thai clinch, more groundwork, boxing, kickboxing, and some really good basic self-defense. Very practical stuff.
Thanks for the compliment, but like I said the art has evolved quite a bit.
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Re: Marin Spivack interview

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 pm

That's quite the mix of good stuff (sans ninjitsu ;) )

For some reason, I thought you were located in the Midwest. I went to some of Wally Jay's and his son's seminars back when I was a very young kyu-grade in Danzan Ryu. He spun off from our system of Gendai Budo so there were still some connections. What sort of JJJ did you teacher do? Okazaki's system? I left the system after my teacher retired the second time (he came out of retirement to prepare and promote me to black belt (only took about 15 years!). I just couldn't find anyone teaching the way it was originally taught by Okazaki: in addition to jujutsu, there was kappo, restorative massage, sumo, judo randori, etc...None of the other schools did randori and only had the kids doing sumo. Very sad. That's when I made the jump to judo all the while doing my taijiquan, still under my now late teacher's tutelage.
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Re: Marin Spivack interview

Postby willie on Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:35 am

[quote="Ian C. Kuzushi"]That's quite the mix of good stuff (sans ninjitsu ;) )

For some reason, I thought you were located in the Midwest./quote] East Coast
Anyways, enough about me. PS the bumping forward is actually a Prelude to bridging. In the street it is quite effective because as somebody tries to strike you in the face they have a clenched fist and then when you bump it throws them off and they smash their fist into the concrete or pavement and break their own hand.
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Re: Marin Spivack interview

Postby driftwood on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:45 am

Willie- If I still lived in Massachusetts (grew up in the Pioneer Valley, lived many places since then) I would definitely try to meet Marin if only for the conversation and the basic knowledge exchange. It does appear that he has some or perhaps a lot of his teachers skill, but he seems to remain within the traditional/medieval teacher/disciple relationship as far as teaching goes. I don't' know what you will learn, but it is worth a try for sure.

#1- his teacher is exceptional.. we have video evidence. #2 you are obviously deeply researching Chen style.. so you need to look beyond the village party line. #3 related to #2 - Beijing Chen style in all its variants looks much better in real practice than anything I've sen out of the modern Chen village. Go for it. And stop lifting weights. : )
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Re: Marin Spivack interview

Postby Bhassler on Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:03 am

driftwood wrote:...he seems to remain within the traditional/medieval teacher/disciple relationship as far as teaching goes.


Just curious, how did you get that impression? From my experience, Marin is pretty much the exact opposite of that...
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Re: Marin Spivack interview

Postby willie on Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:17 am

driftwood wrote:Willie- If I still lived in Massachusetts (grew up in the Pioneer Valley, lived many places since then) I would definitely try to meet Marin if only for the conversation and the basic knowledge exchange. It does appear that he has some or perhaps a lot of his teachers skill, but he seems to remain within the traditional/medieval teacher/disciple relationship as far as teaching goes. I don't' know what you will learn, but it is worth a try for sure.

#1- his teacher is exceptional.. we have video evidence. #2 you are obviously deeply researching Chen style.. so you need to look beyond the village party line. #3 related to #2 - Beijing Chen style in all its variants looks much better in real practice than anything I've sen out of the modern Chen village. Go for it. And stop lifting weights. : )

Okay, Just a couple comments on this.
Yes, I like his style and I will try to meet up with him.
I've been around...so I actually would prefer traditional/medieval.
However, looking beyond village? I'm going to try to clarify that for you a little.
In questioning my teacher about the new approach he said, "make no mistake, they have it" Which I already knew after watching WHJ perform some 15 years ago. It seems that the younger generation is "letting it go" because of the difficulties and the learning curve necessary to actually use it. Plus that, what good is it to have an art that isn't in demand?
If they what to get out there and compete, They will have to change to a more popular format. in short, It's where the money is.
Thanks for your reply.
Last edited by willie on Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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