XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby marvin8 on Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:06 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:Until you are doing Xing I fists you will not have it a thousand times. And you will never know if your execution is correct.


From A Thousand Times is Not Enough..., http://www.wle.com/kungfu/node/80:
by Grandmaster Wing Lam wrote:
"Practice your form 1000 times, and your body and hands will become coordinated and natural."

This is a familiar motto amongst Chinese Kung Fu practitioners. Even for those students who do not speak Chinese, I am sure that they have heard this saying from their teacher in some form or another. This concept is universal throughout all manners of skill, whether it be martial, artistic, technical or compassionate. It stresses the underlying principle of all Kung Fu, practice over time.

However, repetition is not nearly enough. When you recite your forms, if your movements have no meaning, the essence of your practice is not real. Your must have a deep understanding of each technique that you execute. This understanding encompasses several aspects. When evaluating your knowledge of any application, consider the following questions: Against which type of attack would you deploy such a movement? What possible counter attacks are available to your opponent? Where are you open? How can you make the movement adaptable to your individual body? How can you improve your speed and power for this movement? Which places of your body must remain soft and fluid? Which places must be hard?

You could spend years practicing the incorrect technique if you do not fully understand what you are doing. While this might make you physically stronger, this will only be a superficial improvement. If your technique is fundamentally incorrect, practicing it 1000 times will only make you better at performing poorly. This lack of depth will always limit your growth as a martial artist. Many students seem to be satisfied with simply memorizing the movement. They never penetrate the true intention beneath the technique. Unfortunately, these students miss the real beauty behind the art. Their forms are empty and lifeless.

Much of the general population in the United States is painfully naive as to what the martial arts is really about. Martial charlatans frequently take advantage of this naiveté. Anyone who has memorized some movements, or even made up some movements of their own, can open a school. With the proper marketing, these so called instructors can actually achieve some level of success. This does not mean that they understand the technique at all. Worst of all, their students propagate a mythology of movements, never aware of that vital missing element. This is why it is extremely important to choose your teacher wisely. A good teacher can reveal a technique's true meaning and guide their student towards mastery.

Although these "deeper meanings" behind the movements may seem very esoteric to some, there are not really any "secrets" in Kung Fu. Movements of the human body are always accordance to its physical structure. The timing and dynamics of any given movements are subject to the laws of physics. For every movement, there is an optimum alignment of the body that produces maximum impact for the strike. If you truly understand how the physics of your body work, you are wise to these secrets.

The movements of every Kung Fu form has evolved through the ages into an ideal position for the body in combat. In combat, you want to deliver the maximum impact in the minimum time. When your body is correctly positioned and your dynamics are correct, your movement is strong and fast. To achieve this, each movement must be fully understood in your mind, your body, and your soul. Frequently, students will say to me "I understand the movement, I just can not make my body do that yet". These students do not really understand. They are only talking to fill up the time that they are not spending exploring the technique through physical practice. Thinking about how a punch works is much different than an actual punch. While it is important to understand the theory behind each movement, you must also be able to physically execute it before you can begin to talk about understanding.

One of my favorite teaching devices is to freeze my student in the middle of a strike, then forcefully push against his or her fist. They can feel the difference in positioning directly. If their balance is incorrect, they will stumble or fall. Also, the effects of small adjustments in the positioning of the rest of the body upon balance will be immediately tangible. Through this exercise, the subtle importance of the rear hand, known as the "Wu Sao", or "Martial hand", becomes obvious. When your Wu Sao is correctly positioned, it will maximize the power in your striking hand. Many masters watch the Wu Sao very carefully to determine the skill of the fighter. Beginning fighters only tend to only think about the strike, and forget the rest of their body. More sophisticated fighters know how to focus their entire body into their strike.

Many of the forms of Kung Fu have been passed down for generations. They have stood the test of time, preserved for their intrinsic value for hundreds of years. Those sets that were ineffective became extinct. Who knows how many maladapted sets have seen their day in the sun only to be lost over time? Who knows how many of today's forms while last to tomorrow? One thing is certain: those forms that have survived to today represent the accumulated knowledge of generations of practitioners who believed that the form was worthwhile. These forms survive because they get you to work.

However, it is important to remember that the forms themselves are only a structure for learning. Just knowing the pattern of the form will not automatically give you any martial skill whatsoever. These forms are more like physical riddles, or Zen Koans, that you must solve for yourself. The form like a doorway. When the teacher only knows the movements, that teacher can only show this door to the student. When a teacher knows the intentions that underlie that movement, then they can actually open that door up for their student. It will always remain the responsibility of the student to penetrate that doorway, to discover what lies on the other side.

All martial arts are based upon common sense. Realistically, there are only so many ways to move the human body that are practical for combat. Every martial art, hard or soft, circular or linear, no matter what its nation of origin, strives for the same aspirations. Different arts may begin with different emphasis; however, they all arrive at the same general conclusions. We learn these ancient forms, resolving their perfect movements for our own imperfect bodies, and in the process we grow more skillful and powerful.

Perfect each movement first, then do it a thousand times.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby Wanderingdragon on Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:16 pm

“ perfect each movement first, then do it a thousand times “
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby Strange on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:44 am

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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby Strange on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:10 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:“ perfect each movement first, then do it a thousand times “


if we assume that the teacher is competent, the first time that the student should be the "perfect".
the problem is students starts to be clever, so embellishment, do martial mixing all before
understanding the correct meaning that the practice go haywire; and upon application goes deep
into ineffectiveness.
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby johnwang on Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:29 am

I have changed 1000 Pi (or Pao) into 200 of each 5 elements. But I have added:

- downward parry into Beng.
- reverse comb hair into Heng.

This way the compress can be more clear before the release. I have also found out that 200 foot sweep and 200 front cut are good drills too.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby marvin8 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:37 pm

johnwang wrote:I have changed 1000 Pi (or Pao) into 200 of each 5 elements. But I have added:

- downward parry into Beng.
- reverse comb hair into Heng.

This way the compress can be more clear before the release. I have also found out that 200 foot sweep and 200 front cut are good drills too.

What if opponent controls the distance, doesn't block, slips, pull counters, moves, retracts his punches, kicks, etc.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI_ui1WTa6Y

marvin8 wrote:From A Thousand Times is Not Enough..., http://www.wle.com/kungfu/node/80:
by Grandmaster Wing Lam wrote:. . . However, repetition is not nearly enough. When you recite your forms, if your movements have no meaning, the essence of your practice is not real. Your must have a deep understanding of each technique that you execute. This understanding encompasses several aspects. When evaluating your knowledge of any application, consider the following questions: Against which type of attack would you deploy such a movement? What possible counter attacks are available to your opponent? Where are you open? How can you make the movement adaptable to your individual body? How can you improve your speed and power for this movement? Which places of your body must remain soft and fluid? Which places must be hard?

Once one has the moves down, one might practice (solo) chaining the moves similar to the 2 man sets or shadow box:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc89q6urFwI
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:08 pm

Dr John painter recently posted a brief article I wish I could find for this discussion (and I will when I do).

He discusses the idea of the "Golden movement" or one perfect iteration of a form or posture being all that's necessary to really rain it.

For my money I see value in quality and quantity but only quantity with quality.

The two opposing theories are that imperfect repetitions either approach perfection or ingrain error.

I'm not sure which is correct. Can you do something perfectly eventually by doing it imperfectly many times? Or are you simply training yourself to do it perfectly imperfect?
Last edited by oragami_itto on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby johnwang on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:46 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I'm not sure which is correct. Can you do something perfectly eventually by doing it imperfectly many times? Or are you simply training yourself to do it perfectly imperfect?

What is perfect for A may not be perfect for B.

In the following clip, after Pi, I like to pull my arm and leg back at the same time. I then extend my arm as Tsuan and step in at the same time. From the application point of view, I like to use my whole body weight to pull (not just to use my arm). What is perfect for me may not be perfect for him.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:14 pm

Any time that I believe I have something correct to speak of, I will always give visual demonstration to invite observation and critique.
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby johnwang on Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:30 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:Any time that I believe I have something correct to speak of, I will always give visual demonstration to invite observation and critique.

What if people have done it wrong for generations.

The XingYi Heng Chuan is another example. When my teacher was still alive, he kept telling people that the big fist eye of the Heng Chuan should point upward instead of to point side way.



The Yang Taiji double pulling is another example. He should have 1 palm facing up and another palm facing down.

Last edited by johnwang on Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:25 pm

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I'm not sure which is correct. Can you do something perfectly eventually by doing it imperfectly many times? Or are you simply training yourself to do it perfectly imperfect?

What is perfect for A may not be perfect for B.


So what I mean to say is twofold, and i reached out to Dr Painter for some help with the second half here.

First, the idea of excessively drilling something that isn't yet mastered or is poorly understood. You're just directly ingraining error that has to be corrected. Martial arts are easy to learn and difficult to correct, right?

Second, drilling past a certain point can become counterproductive. Once glycogen stores are depleted and the body becomes tired, movements will become erroneous. It may be a subtle error that we're too tired to notice, but the mind records the variance and the result is at best imprecision and at worst overt error.

However, with prolonged training (years not hours), that "useful time" may (or may not) increase, depending on the overall health and wellness and diet, etc of the individual.

So GM John "the beast" Wang, can most likely safely bust out 1000 Pi Chuan anytime and not be any worse for wear, a beginner should not attempt to duplicate the feat until they can do it comfortably, pushing the envelope gradually and taking care to eat and rest well as part of your regimen.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:38 pm

johnwang wrote:The Yang Taiji double pulling is another example. He should have 1 palm facing up and another palm facing down.



This is where understanding comes in. I believe that piece of form (part of single whip) is more akin to what I understand the Lu to be. It's not primarily a pull but a deflection to emptiness. Double Peng rotating to the side. The following segment could be more double pull as you say with the palms facing each other. Or in rollback between ward off right and press in grasp sparrow's tail just before this single whip can also function as Cai.

But it's contextual, the same piece of form could be employed in many different ways effectively.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby Strange on Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:23 pm

marvin8 wrote:What if opponent controls the distance, doesn't block, slips, pull counters, moves, retracts his punches,


if you meet someone like that, 10 times out of 10, you're dead
just give up, no need to fight anymore :)
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:36 pm

What if after training 1000 pi Chuan daily , it crumbles on contact for lack of understanding.
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Re: XingYi Pi Chuan 1000 times

Postby johnwang on Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:53 pm

The old CMA saying said, "1 is better than 1,2 and 1,2 is better than 1,2,3".

During the

1. beginning training stage, you may divide Pi into 3 moves (Tsuan, back arm slide on top of leading arm, palm strike).
2. intermediate training stage, you may divide Pi into 2 move (compress, release).
3. advance training stage, you may just consider Pi as 1 move (flow).

How long will it take you to be able to do Pi in just 1 move? The 1000 Pi is a way to achieve that. It's like a rock that rolls down from the top of the mountain. When that rock has reached to the bottom of the mountain, that rock will be much more smooth (less sharp edges).
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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