Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:45 am

For me it's just to do with buzzwords. Some people just like to fill their online videos with buzzwords ;)

I often wonder what would happen if all the "deep front line" and "cross body connection" or whatevers were all taken away, what would you have left?

"To attain knowledge add things every day, to obtain wisdom remove things every day".

I'm pretty sure we could boil all these lengthy explanations of things down a bit to make them more understandable.

"Explain it so that your grandmother could understand it": https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/gr ... randmother

The other issue is that obviously, fascia exists, but a lot of people seem to attribute it with all sorts of magical properties there's little or no evidence it has. That seems to happen a lot.

Ultimately, I don't really care - everybody is free to do whatever they want.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:37 am

For me it's just to do with buzzwords. Some people just like to fill their online videos with buzzwords ;)


They SURE do! I imagine we are talking about different people. ;)

I mean, we could think of Fascia and the research around its role in the body as a 'fad' or as a 'buzz' word. But that would be akin to saying why use a word like 'Lymph'. Before we knew what Lymph was we still moved in ways that moved it around the body ... so why use that 'buzz word'.

I am actually not a fan of putting everything on the shoulders of fascia and i don't do that. For some people it has become the be all and end all of things, but i am absolutely not in that camp. In fact from research I am thinking that Neurology is another major factor in 'connection. Happilly i like having my viewpoint altered by new evidence.

There are two problematic camps here for me .. .1) who reject it as a 'fad' 'buzz word' or similar like yourself. 2) who act like it is the answer for everything. Both are characterised by a lack of research on the subject and ignorance on both the body of available research, the continued research and the scope of fascias importance.

I often wonder what would happen if all the "deep front line" and "cross body connection" or whatever’s were all taken away, what would you have left?


We would be left with people not understanding why they are doing a given movement. The descriptions i personally use absolutely help the person in front of me, or i wouldn’t use them. Or maybe we should fall back onto the brilliant descriptive power of something like 'Move the Chi' or 'Muscle-Tendon Channel'.

What i find really bizarre is that some terms for certain things you have no problem with. Things like Ground Path or' muscle-tendon channels', 'sinew channels' are accepted.

"To attain knowledge add things every day, to obtain wisdom remove things every day".


Very nice, but the context of that quote is important. I don’t think this method will help me get my degree.

I'm pretty sure we could boil all these lengthy explanations of things down a bit to make them more understandable.

"Explain it so that your grandmother could understand it": https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/gr ... randmother


I totally agree with the article. In fact, I would go further and say that you should be able to explain to your grandmother AND get her to feel what you are talking about. I could walk to the fridge, pull out a joint of meat and show her in seconds what fascia is and get her to feel how it connects things, then say, its the same in our body.

I would love to hear how you would describe Jing, Shen, Li, Chi, 'muscle-tendon channels' and all the other classical terms ultimately defuse of concrete meaning/context to your grandmother haha.

The other issue is that obviously, fascia exists, but a lot of people seem to attribute it with all sorts of magical properties there's little or no evidence it has. That seems to happen a lot.


Are you seriously suggesting that people attribute more 'magical' properties to fascia than to Chi or Jing or whatever else an 'internal martial artist' will prefer to use ... and that lack of evidence is REALLY the problem here? If 'evidence' is so important here then something like 'chi' or the muscle-tendon channels should be rejected immediately. They are not and that is why i really struggle with your point of view.

Ultimately, I don't really care - everybody is free to do whatever they want.


People do indeed. But you really do seem to care, hence why i am interested in understanding your view. You comment on every thread with Fascia in the title.

As i say, for coaches, sports scientists and research departments i think it is important to know what is happening both for program design, for furthering anatomical understanding on the whole and practically for checking progress. For practitioners and athletes it should be nothing more that a sentence or two.

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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:46 am

I dunno... I'm pretty sure you're taking 17 minutes 45 seconds here to simply explain how to move your arm in a circle ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHnCzJtM3B8&t=886s



But it's ok, you've put me in a "camp", so you can ignore me now ;D lol

(Just yanking your chain)
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby jaime_g on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:04 am

I dunno... I'm pretty sure you're taking 17 minutes 45 seconds here to simply explain how to move your arm in a circle


If that were the case, people would use pairing all the time while doing taichi. Maybe these 17 minutes 45 seconds are needed to actually understand that touching with a circle isnt just moving the arm in circles ;)
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:41 am

Graham,

And you have put me in a camp as is evidenced by virtually every discussion we ever have.

As 'pretty sure' as you are, It seems you missed the point entirely. Or you simply dont like the point. Either way the reason for posting a video unrelated to this thread baffles me.

As usual, when presented with a difficult discussion, you close down to a personal dig ... then claim its just a joke. I see through that 'passive aggressive' shit though, it is not a position you would be willing to take to my face, i am as certain of that as i am of your misunderstanding of the video you posted.

Your videos speak for themselves, mine do as well. I dont need to post yours, they are not relevant here.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:55 am

Just backing away now. It seems there are some people you just can't talk to.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:13 am

Indeed ... You didnt talk. You didnt address anything in my post on topic at all. You made a little snide post about a video not related to this thread or subject.

Back to the thread
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:37 am

I scanned back through your long post and I can't see any questions. You just stated a load of stuff about what you thought. Almost all of which I agree with. That's nice, good for you.

Why do I need to address any of it?
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:51 am

I thought we were discussing our differing opinion on Fascia and you would have some opinions on what i wrote. I didnt pose any questions in my earlier post either, but there were responces.

Of course you dont need to address anything. I responded to you because you decided to post something completely off topic to either insult me, mock my approach, or 'be funny'.

Back to the topic for the others, we have taken up enough space with this.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:18 am

Yes, I was making a joke at your expense. Sorry, I thought you were robust enough to take it. I guess not. My bad.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:30 am

Indeed, obviously i am not very robust. I am sure anyone else reading this train wreck is highly amused though.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:44 am

Back on topic, I made the wife watch this with me on the second trip through it. Amazing stuff this fascia.

Toward the end here they compare it to Buckminster Fuller sculpture and architecture and spiders webs, how disturbing any one part of the system is felt throughout the whole.

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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby RobP3 on Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:21 am

Funny thing is I've seen posts from the teacher referenced in the OP that were extremely disparaging towards Russian styles which...oh never mind lol :)
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:25 am

Strolling under the skin is a much watched video but has problems, for instance. This is something i used to quote until i began to look into it a bit more closely.

In Guimberteau’s video, ‘Strolling Under The Skin’, what you see there is that the ‘fuzzy’ stuff is really dynamic tissue that is under constant change. Tissues don’t ‘slide’, there is no shear, they reconfigure with each movement. The dynamics of a cell ceases with death. Ca++ [calcium ions] flood into the cell and it stiffens — that’s rigor mortis. It starts within minutes of death, as soon as the circulating ATP [energy molecule] runs out. The ‘fuzz’ is connective tissue that is stiffened during rigor mortis, and it doesn’t happen unless you die. It occurs within minutes of death, and you can almost watch it happen. It is like snot hardening. The mucus booger that comes out of your nose quickly hardens and becomes quite stiff; at death, the mucus that connects all our tissues, does the same.

All that ‘melting the fuzz’ is conjecture based on misinterpreted observations on dead tissue. Even so called “fresh” cadavers are but poor players in the game of life.


From this excellent breakdown of the problem with focusing on Fascia in Manual Therapy.

https://www.painscience.com/articles/does-fascia-matter.php
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:58 am

Afa the lymphatic system, couldn't it be related to qi as much as the nervous system or any other?
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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Female.png

Fascia are obviously crucial, and seem to be related to martial performance. But, what's not important in the whole system?
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