Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Trick on Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:05 pm

Whenever I'm down eating at the local beef noodle soup joint there are what I think is Fascia on some of the beef chunks, my wife has told me to eat that is very good for the body so I do:) that also comes for cartilage and marrow...yummy. Now I haven't had a heavy cold in many years(as I used to have before I met my other half:) ....Maybe I have gotten some strong Ox Qi in my body from eating beef fascia
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:17 am

Graham,

Thanks for your reply.

So it seems that all you needed to hear was that something is stretching to get the idea and be able to train it, the fact that he uses words like muscle, tendon, fascia, warrent no more investigation for you as a practitioner. That is absolutely fine, and in fact, precisely what i said! So you have essentially agreed with my point on the use of the term Fascia for the practitioner in front of you.

For practitioners and athletes it should be nothing more that a sentence or two.


But, put yourself in mikes position. He is a coach using a set of words to describe his process. Do you think Mike himself should know and understand the terms he is using and to what depth. When he says 'Fascia' should he know what it is, what it does, how it does it and why we have it? I think yes and the position Mike is in, is the position I am in. In fact i would go further and say that both Mike and I are in the position of often teaching Teachers who want to pass our ideas onto their students, so again it is important that they follow the same process, learn the terms and understand what they are talking about so that it can inform and enhance their ability to coach.

To quote myself fully from earlier in the thread
As i say, for coaches, sports scientists and research departments i think it is important to know what is happening both for program design, for furthering anatomical understanding on the whole and practically for checking progress. For practitioners and athletes it should be nothing more that a sentence or two.


On the video content itself I think we have been over this before. I understand you like what is shown and i can see it fits with your previous Taiji training. I think there is merit in some of it, I am not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but i also think that some things are extremely basic and things like the ground path concept shouldnt be work used beyond the very, very early training stages ... if at all. I am not interested in Mikes personal movement or skill, the teacher isnt as important as the material.

As an example, the use of the earth and the 'ground path' idea. I wrote an article on structure and forces that may be of interest. Mike appears to use the Bracing concept with a certain stretched/tensegrity feel inside that concept.
https://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research/Blog/ArticleID/98/The-Structure-Force

This is fine but there are problems with it that are apparant and i can show in 1 minutes with someone who uses it (i have done this with several people following this idea, their level i am not sure). We do not want to give force access to even a springy, taut structure. Of course we do want the taut structure he is talking about though.

This is why 'Pairing' is important to me as it entirely gets around that problem. It is definately NOT moving your arm in a circle as mike shows, even if it is driven by what he calls Dan Tien. It is rotating the point of contact to lessen the effective line of force and make the partner have to adjust. There are varied levels of complexity to this as my video shows.
Here is an article on how Angle Change can deminish force.
https://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research/Blog/ArticleID/100/Changing-the-effect-of-a-force

To demonstrate my point, you can see it in effect very clearly here at 6.40.



Initially Sam is using the ground to 'resist' the push, then he pushes back to highlight how that is wrong, then he 'pairs' at the point of contact as i would call it and the partners force is extinguished. It is the instant he says 'But if i do this' that the person no longer has access to sam and doesnt even feel the floor at the point of contact anymore, they feel like they have no push at all. It is not magical, it is mechanical and it is subtle, even a change at the POC of a few degrees can make the partner not feel the floor your structure or anything. But it is definately not simply moving your arm in a circle driven by the centre of Dan Tien.

But how do we change the angle without it being weak, obvious and easy to stop. We move with a taut body, in a spirally shape. The problem of course is that if we simply turn someone good will simply re-adjust and find the optimum line again, I have been through the spiral of the body and how equal opposites are required however, This is something you have expressed distaste for numerous times, which is absolutely fine. So i wont continue there.

Sam, however, shows this very clearly in that moment i highlight above, where both hands are linked during the pairing, his structure spirals making the contact points rotate and the power completely extinguish. If you could feel his legs i would wager one if pushing one is pulling, at exactely the same time, for instance. Not only does it extinguish ... it off balances the partner and they are then his to control. Sam can do this in an instant and with extreme clarity, it is why he is so special, it is also why you never actually feel the floor at all when you touch him, you dont feel much of anything, You dont have a push, and you just dont have your centre anymore.

Hopefully that explains why i dont like the ground path, feel the floor stuff. You are completely entitled to your opinion of the above ... you may think 'Yeh thats just like ....' in the same way i do about Mikes work. Which is all fine.

There is no need, however, to disparage someone publically for explaining a rather complicated idea simply because you misunderstand it. I guess that is either my fault for not explaining it clearly enough, or your own for bring preconceptions to the video.

Either way, thank you for the response. I hope i have cleared up the position on why i Use the term Fascia at the start of this post, if nothing else.

Chris.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:34 am

Trick wrote:Whenever I'm down eating at the local beef noodle soup joint there are what I think is Fascia on some of the beef chunks, my wife has told me to eat that is very good for the body so I do:) that also comes for cartilage and marrow...yummy. Now I haven't had a heavy cold in many years(as I used to have before I met my other half:) ....Maybe I have gotten some strong Ox Qi in my body from eating beef fascia


All of the connective tissue stuff is great for you! People in some circles are starting being prescribed Bone Broth and Collegan rich foods to speed up the healing of joint injuries. :)
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby GrahamB on Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:23 am

middleway wrote:Graham,

Thanks for your reply.



No problem. Your really long reply posts are difficult to reply to though - in interviews, this is known as the "smash technique" where the interviewer seeks to overwhelm the interviewee with too many questions for him/her to reasonably answer in the time period. (not that this is an interview, or what you are intentionally doing, but the principle is the same). So I would ask that we just keep it specific, one point at a time if you want to have a meaningful dialog.

So, let's just start with the first bit of your reply. I'll try and address that. If we can get past that we can move on to the rest, but obviously this will generate additional questions or points and dialog and I suspect we'll never get back to the rest of your post.



So it seems that all you needed to hear was that something is stretching to get the idea and be able to train it, the fact that he uses words like muscle, tendon, fascia, warrent no more investigation for you as a practitioner. That is absolutely fine, and in fact, precisely what i said! So you have essentially agreed with my point on the use of the term Fascia for the practitioner in front of you.



Yes, but I already said I agreed with you on this point. You must have missed it? I'd say you are guilty of talking past me here?


For practitioners and athletes it should be nothing more that a sentence or two.



Who said this? I don't think it was me. Was it you? Why are you putting in an unattributed quote - it's not helpful.

But, put yourself in mikes position. He is a coach using a set of words to describe his process. Do you think Mike himself should know and understand the terms he is using and to what depth. When he says 'Fascia' should he know what it is, what it does, how it does it and why we have it? I think yes and the position Mike is in, is the position I am in. In fact i would go further and say that both Mike and I are in the position of often teaching Teachers who want to pass our ideas onto their students, so again it is important that they follow the same process, learn the terms and understand what they are talking about so that it can inform and enhance their ability to coach.


I can't put myself in Mike's position - I'm not Mike. I can't say what Mike should or should not do. I suspect he knows enough about fascia to know what it is.

I would also say that the two of you are not in the same position as a "coach". You charge for an online course. He doesn't. I'd say that immediately put you in a different sphere. So, I can't access your course to evaluate your information. The information Mike puts out I can evaluate and I think he explains his terms sufficiently.

I'd agree that you are in the same position when it comes to the fact you are trying to relay information to people, but I wouldn't say you are the same in all respects or set up as teachers in the same way - Mike has no 'customers' or 'students' or even a teaching programme.
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:33 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby jaime_g on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:05 am

That's simply a lie Graham
There are many free videos in youtube where Chris is explaining connection and dt basic development
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby GrahamB on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:16 am

jaime_g wrote:That's simply a lie Graham
There are many free videos in youtube where Chris is explaining connection and dt basic development


What exactly are you saying is a lie?
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:27 am

.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:02 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:28 am

To two of my favorite posters:

De-escalate. refocus. resume.

Of course, I am being hypocritical with that request, but a guy has to try. ;D
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:30 am

Oh, Chris beat me to it. Mostly.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:32 am

De-escalate. refocus. resume.


Amen to that. :)
Last edited by middleway on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby GrahamB on Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:52 am

Chris I'm not going to engage with you if you just call my posts snide bullshit. Good luck with your attitude.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:00 am

You insulted me multiple times on this thread. fair enough Graham i note you have edited your post as i have mine .. conversation complete.

Sorry all ... normal services can resume now! :-X
Last edited by middleway on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Peacedog on Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:13 am

Steve,

The lymphatic system is more often associated with the San Jiao/Tripple Burner than anything else, but as is always the case with this stuff it isn't a direct 1 for 1 association.


To everyone else,

As for the fascia discussion, my main criticism of a lot of the modern research on this comes in the same vein as that which I give exercise physiologists. Both the MD fascia researchers and the exercise physiologists don't talk to the people who actually have experience training others in the modality. The same thing is largely true of nutritionists.

You want to understand how to make people strong: talk to someone who runs a black iron gym. You want to understand how to recomp a body: talk to a bodybuilder. You want to understand how to train fascia: talk to a traditional martial artist.

Training fascia isn't rocket science. It is largely boring, repetitive, sometimes painful and takes forever. Which is why few people succeed. That said, without the right pipes nothing else seems to work. Most people use bodyweight, but resistance training is an important element as well particularly at the more advanced levels.

And I suspect I agree with Middleway, these researchers whould learn a lot from a medical perspective if they simply got to know a TCM practitioner who understood sinew channels really well.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Yeung on Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:32 am

Maybe practitioners should update their knowledge of science. The problem with most practitioners is that they are not certain of what works. One has to have a stable variable to carry out research on the subject.
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Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:43 am

One has to have a stable variable to carry out research on the subject.


This is the problem i am hitting with the study we are trying to get going. Quantification without biopsy is the stumbling block along with the duration of the study.
Last edited by middleway on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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