Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:08 pm

People keep saying I am saying fascia does not exist
I see it like blood or lymph
I have been involved in tcm ,osteopathy,chiropractic and massage since 1973 and have a knowledge of fascia since then
It is this thing about its existence changing the internal arts I don't recognise
It is just another term for the ill equiped to dupe the gullible
I like the way all those who were never really skilled in the internal arts move on to other things but still lecture on the arts they leave
Don't try and turn my words around and say I don't believe in fascia
I can't show exercises that display chi. (a term I never use in my teaching)
I can show exercises that lead to its discovery,but most won't do them long enough to feel their benifit
Just show me one exercise that was not around before fascia became the magic word of the illusionist
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3090
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Bill on Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:15 pm

Wayne is RSF's Antifa.
By that I mean he's Anti-Fasciaist.

;)
It hurts when I Pi
User avatar
Bill
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4897
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:32 pm

No I'm Antifw
Bill you are just another one saying I don't believe in fascia
Fascia is undenighable
It is just nothing new
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3090
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:41 pm

Wayne.

Why are you obsessed with something being 'new'?

I guess you could look at any bosu ball isometric exercise as that specific bit of equipment was not around 100 years ago.... I don't really see what your point is in asking for a specifically modern exercise...

Forget new vs old for one second. What are you saying? That fascia is not needed in the traditional internal martial arts? Cause if so then I actually agree!

I dont think those dedicated to a tradition like taiji need to use anything but the nomenclature of taiji as that is an integral part of the tradition. Those not dedicated to a tradition can use whatever is most relatable to them. That is fair..No?

I actually see no evidence that the understanding of fascia and its role in our body has changed the exercises of traditional CIMA. Simply that some people have adopted it as a model of description.
Last edited by middleway on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4444
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Bill on Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:43 pm

Wayne

No, I'm saying that you believe in fascia, you're against the fasciaists, those who believe its important to IMA.

And I agree with you on that.
It hurts when I Pi
User avatar
Bill
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4897
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:24 pm

I am not against new stuff I love anything that is new
I am against people dressing up old stuff not doing it very well as putting a new set of clothes on it
Bill I misunderstood what you were saying
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3090
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:15 pm

OBviously, some folks have a lot of baggage with the term. I think it's fascinating stuff, worth learning more about. Which is what I think about most stuff, but I digress.

As far as I can tell all of the legitimate sources of information say that the exercises we're already doing as part of our taijiquan are about all you can do to "nourish" and "cultivate" the fascia, if that's even possible.

I would hazard to say it is entirely possible to affect the amount of collagen in the body, which may be all there is to "nourishing" the fascia, which would seem to help keep the skin looking smooth and young and supple.

I know, of course, that some people here have obtained all useful earthly knowledge about every possible subject and they have the only correct attitude and approach towards the study of martial arts.

I'm just a dumbass who still has things to learn.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:24 pm

As far as I can tell all of the legitimate sources of information say that the exercises we're already doing as part of our taijiquan are about all you can do to "nourish" and "cultivate" the fascia, if that's even possible.


Imo, it's certainly possible; it's even necessary. But, the point is whether identifying and focusing on the fascia helps in terms of performance. Clearly, more can be learned about the body. Otoh, the old masters didn't use the term; so, it's hard to argue that it's necessary. Yeah, one can argue that they didn't use the term, but they were talking about the same thing. OK, but translation wouldn't change the result.

However, I think it's obvious that focusing on specific fascia areas because of specific issue makes sense. If you complain of heel pain and the doc diagnoses Plantar fasciitis, then there are specific exercises that you can do. It'd be interesting to find out if cima practitioners suffer more or less from that common problem.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16849
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:01 pm

Steve James wrote:
As far as I can tell all of the legitimate sources of information say that the exercises we're already doing as part of our taijiquan are about all you can do to "nourish" and "cultivate" the fascia, if that's even possible.


Imo, it's certainly possible; it's even necessary. But, the point is whether identifying and focusing on the fascia helps in terms of performance. Clearly, more can be learned about the body. Otoh, the old masters didn't use the term; so, it's hard to argue that it's necessary. Yeah, one can argue that they didn't use the term, but they were talking about the same thing. OK, but translation wouldn't change the result.

However, I think it's obvious that focusing on specific fascia areas because of specific issue makes sense. If you complain of heel pain and the doc diagnoses Plantar fasciitis, then there are specific exercises that you can do. It'd be interesting to find out if cima practitioners suffer more or less from that common problem.


Looking at the way the network is built and operates it is compelling. The idea that the strength comes from sinew and ligament instead of the muscles, the one part moving all parts, etc.

I find understanding something does give me some measure of control. Illness, for example, I can recover much faster it seems when I know exactly what is wrong and can visualize the parts in my head. Knowing how breath and the heart works gives me control over my heartbeat. Maybe knowing more about fascia can help me gain more awareness and or control over how it works. All subtle stuff, feeling the layers between skin and muscle like a loose heavy coat I move around within for example.

In a big fan of visualization lol
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:09 pm

While in China what they called it was jin lou "sp" the connective tissue that seems to correspond to whats called fascia.
The constant admonition to fan song, "relax" and "relax" more is so that one can feel the connections with out engaging the main muscle groups...

pulled to tight it breaks, to loose it's of no use, refers to the feeling that one has...The question then becomes as some have mentioned,

how does one motivate the body movements.

As if swimming in water, or feeling the air like water metaphors used to convey the meaning of floating. How this is achieved and utilized depends
on ones practice.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KVPA-9hofw

stand like a scale, A feather cannot be added, a fly cannot alight. My opponent does not know me, I alone know ...

ect....

do not use force..
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6565
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:47 pm

TT Liang taught "swimming in air" by way of the professor. They said that's how the Yangs developed a kind of "force field" around the body that protected them from attack at all times even when they weren't alert or it came from behind.

Learning about the nature of the substance, it is very compelling.

Are you familiar with Oobleck? It's a special kind of "non-newtonian" fluid made from cornstarch and water. The cool part is it's more fluid when you interact with it softly and slowly, and acts like a solid when you try to interact with it swiftly.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Oobleck/
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby middleway on Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:30 am

I am not against new stuff I love anything that is new
I am against people dressing up old stuff not doing it very well as putting a new set of clothes on it


Thanks for the responce. I understand, respect and used to vehemently hold the same position. As my personal goals changed, so did my outlook in this regard.

My interests are two fold, maximising the results of my personal training time and maximising the results for those i coach. As such I made a very deliberate decision to reject most traditional models, directly at odds with my previous outlook. This is because the traditional models and nomenclature are essentially useless for almost everyone outside of them. For me to teach a Muay Thai Fighter a method useful to them for health or performance, the least useful way to do it would be to say 'Take up traditional Tai Chi.'

By definition, for useful methods to reach those whom they will benefit outside of their traditional audience, you have to put the clothes on them that the audience will understand best. If the coach is not bound by a duty to uphold or continue a tradition this is very easy.

I think that is where modern Anatomy can inform and aid in the tuition and education process of the athlete, and where things like the information presented in this thread stems from.

As for how well methods are done, that is a subjective point that general requires time to understand what is being done without our own bias. 'Not good' to some eyes who look through a certain lens can be 'perfect' to others. This is something we do all the time in numerous tasks we perform. If i cook some lunch, a pro chef may tell me that i cooked everything incorrectly, using the wrong techniques and without refinement ... but my belly is still full and i still get my nutrition ... so who cares what the pro chef thinks! You see my point.

thanks again for the responce.
Last edited by middleway on Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:37 am, edited 4 times in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4444
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Yeung on Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:27 am

Yeung wrote:Review of Evidence Suggesting That the Fascia Network Could Be the Anatomical Basis for Acupoints and Meridians in the Human Body

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/2011/260510/


https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/2011/260510/fig1/
Yeung
Huajing
 
Posts: 401
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby Trick on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:32 am

wayne hansen wrote:Just show me one exercise that was not around before fascia became the magic word of the illusionist
Probably just the new names of the exercises that makes exercises seem relatively new - "The Ninja principle (focus on effortless movement quality)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascia_training
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Fascia with Dr. Ginervra Liptan — Ken Gullette Podcast

Postby GrahamB on Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:28 pm

middleway wrote:
The descriptions i personally use absolutely help the person in front of me, or i wouldn’t use them. Or maybe we should fall back onto the brilliant descriptive power of something like 'Move the Chi' or 'Muscle-Tendon Channel'.

What i find really bizarre is that some terms for certain things you have no problem with. Things like Ground Path or' muscle-tendon channels', 'sinew channels' are accepted.



Well, fair point. I guess it's all just buzzwords. But since you asked...... I find the 10 minute video below to be sufficient explanation of all the terms Mike uses for me to understand them. He also uses the term "fascia" in the video as a descriptive part of the body. That's perfectly adequate for me. It's the people who seem intent on ascribing magical properties to its abilities that I don't get (but it seems you are not one of these people anyway, from what you've written.) - like in that video somebody linked to, which later turned out to show movement that was impossible on live tissue, only on dead tissue.

https://vimeo.com/254718620

I seem to get a lot of stick on this forum for giving credit to Mike for his ideas, but I'm more interested in the truth than expediency, and the way he breaks things down and describes them rings true to me. There's no mysticism in what he's talking about, just common sense. A lot of Chinese teachers will just tell you to move the dantien, give you a demonstration, then you're on your own to work out what that meant. Some get it, some don't. Most think they get it but don't, which is even more dangerous. Some of those people end up being able to rough people up and throw people around and use that as the justification for having 'got it'. But what are they really teaching?

(I can't say I agree with Mike's politics, but I think it's important to have people in your life who have a different view to you and challenge yours, otherwise you're just stuck in an echo chamber and never challenge your own assumptions.)

In this video he's showing

a) what the dantien is

b) how it connects to the arms and legs

c) how to 'move from the dantien' and do silk reeling

d) what qi and jin mean in the context of internal martial arts

He's making it look easy, but it's not easy. Obviously what he's showing in that video is just 'basic' level, but it's all laid out in logical terms, and he can do it in real life too (I've touched hands with him) and I can't see anybody else out there teaching stuff publicly (beyond the high level guys) who can do these 'basics things' to same level, fwiw. (I'm happy to be a nobody in the world of internal arts, so nobody should really care that much about my opinion, but I personally do care a lot - there's no other choice in life. We should care a lot).
Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:51 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Stable Genius.
Winky Faces Make Your Texts Sarcastic, Scientists Say
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11196
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests

cron