When form is doin` you

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: When form is doin` you

Postby BruceP on Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:40 pm

oragami_itto wrote:There's the authentic thing which takes time and training, and the counterfeit "trick" that you can teach someone in a single session. Goes for many of the skills and qualities.


Aww geeze eh

A baby doesn't need to learn any tricks before they know how to brush a fly off their face. You don't need to learn any tricks before you know how to scratch an itch on your skull. It's easy...

That thinking/belief, that time and training stand between spontaneity and proper method, is what has kept people from owning their tjq.

The skills any person possesses at present are all they need to find their tai cbi as a spontaneous, free and easy method. Proper training and time spent takes care of everything else.
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:38 am

BruceP wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:There's the authentic thing which takes time and training, and the counterfeit "trick" that you can teach someone in a single session. Goes for many of the skills and qualities.


A baby doesn't need to learn any tricks before they know how to brush a fly off their face. You don't need to learn any tricks before you know how to scratch an itch on your skull. It's easy...

That thinking/belief, that time and training stand between spontaneity and proper method, is what has kept people from owning their tjq.

The skills any person possesses at present are all they need to find their tai cbi as a spontaneous, free and easy method. Proper training and time spent takes care of everything else.


IME, both are correct. Not all, but most of people should be able to feel these spontaneous movements from start, though the sensation will become stronger and more controlled as they practice to feel these sensations better and at the same time learn to become more stable and coordinated. But some people can not be spontaneous and free from start, some people need quite some time of practice to loosen up and release tensions in their bodies. And others are not very good friends with themselves so they resent any kind of feeling that are free and spontaneous. All are different and everyone need a different amount of time to feel comfortable with the practice.
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby RobP3 on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:48 am

Bao wrote:
BruceP wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:There's the authentic thing which takes time and training, and the counterfeit "trick" that you can teach someone in a single session. Goes for many of the skills and qualities.


A baby doesn't need to learn any tricks before they know how to brush a fly off their face. You don't need to learn any tricks before you know how to scratch an itch on your skull. It's easy...

That thinking/belief, that time and training stand between spontaneity and proper method, is what has kept people from owning their tjq.

The skills any person possesses at present are all they need to find their tai cbi as a spontaneous, free and easy method. Proper training and time spent takes care of everything else.


IME, both are correct. Not all, but most of people should be able to feel these spontaneous movements from start, though the sensation will become stronger and more controlled as they practice to feel these sensations better and at the same time learn to become more stable and coordinated. But some people can not be spontaneous and free from start, some people need quite some time of practice to loosen up and release tensions in their bodies. And others are not very good friends with themselves so they resent any kind of feeling that are free and spontaneous. All are different and everyone need a different amount of time to feel comfortable with the practice.


This is where I always felt there was a "conflict" in TJQ practice. Some say the movements are natural and spontaneous, others that TJQ is a method that overlays and suppresses our natural movements
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:21 am

RobP3 wrote:This is where I always felt there was a "conflict" in TJQ practice. Some say the movements are natural and spontaneous, others that TJQ is a method that overlays and suppresses our natural movements


People tend to mix different things together. Tai Chi and Neidan theory says that our movements we do in our daily life are not natural. They are learned and thus unnatural.

The movements a child does are natural. We are born with natural movements, but later as we grow up they are replaced with learned movements. A small child has a great energy. They move around, jump, run and they can keep on seemingly forever without being exhausted. But society teaches us to sit still, how to sit, how to move, how to behave- So we gradually lose our natural, original movements. Neidan and Tai Chi is designed to recapture this energy we had as a child, to throw away what we were learned about moving and being and re-gain, or re-build, our natural movements. This is the real meaning of "natural movements" in Tai Chi and this is what in old Daoist Neidan practice was believed to be the key to be able to live long and healthy life.
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby wiesiek on Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:13 am

to clarified:
qigonng which I practice is connected with the MA internally only,
I mean energy is goin` by the pathways, as usual,
just
better...
MA is more side effect of doin` it
no conflict whatsoever ,
doing it on the 1st training ? why not if you have knowledge of the meridians etc., previous 20 years of meditation training and some MA under the belt, maybe babe ;)
anyway
learning curve of this quite simple form takes 3-6 month, doing it one time - 20 -40 minutes, depends of the breathing.
go figure it out,
and
I`m speakin` not about kinda of response for external stimulation -joint-
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby wiesiek on Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:17 am

ps
sorry I use the wrong phrase : >doing it<
it should be:
>let it be<
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby LaoDan on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:03 pm

BruceP wrote:I'd get people into that spontaneous responsive state on their first day of training - where they're 'just along for the ride'.

It's easy to create that state, and repeat it in the solo training.

To me, it seems like a difficult task to move people away from the natural “fight-or-flight” response when interacting with someone else, unless there is a level of trust and cooperation between the participants. But when we engage in fighting, we must have training to remain “neutral” without the fear (flight) or anger (fight), resistance (fighting against) or collapsing (running away), excesses or deficiencies, etc. that are the common way of reacting against aggression.

Taijiquan wants the spontaneous ability to “follow” the opponent (sticking, adhering, connecting, following) without imposing our likes and dislikes, habits, reflexive responses, etc. Is this the same “spontaneous responsive state” that you are able to train your students on day one? If so, then please share the training with us! If, what I understand takes a lot of training to achieve, can actually be learned on the first day, then this would be very valuable to me as a teacher and practitioner!
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:21 pm

LaoDan wrote:To me, it seems like a difficult task to move people away from the natural “fight-or-flight” response when interacting with someone else, unless there is a level of trust and cooperation between the participants. But when we engage in fighting, we must have training to remain “neutral” without the fear (flight) or anger (fight), resistance (fighting against) or collapsing (running away), excesses or deficiencies, etc. that are the common way of reacting against aggression.


What my tai chi taught me pretty early was that my body functions better when I relax, when I am calmed and breath. For meeting violence and being forced to fight when I was younger, my natural reaction was to relax and become calm. I could, and still can, have problems copying with stress in daily life, but when I met conflicts, this was never a problem. It probably sounds weird, but this is my own experience. T'ai Chi can help you to re-learn your natural response to conflicts.
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby BruceP on Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:01 pm

LaoDan wrote:To me, it seems like a difficult task to move people away from the natural “fight-or-flight” response when interacting with someone else, unless there is a level of trust and cooperation between the participants. But when we engage in fighting, we must have training to remain “neutral” without the fear (flight) or anger (fight), resistance (fighting against) or collapsing (running away), excesses or deficiencies, etc. that are the common way of reacting against aggression.

Taijiquan wants the spontaneous ability to “follow” the opponent (sticking, adhering, connecting, following) without imposing our likes and dislikes, habits, reflexive responses, etc. Is this the same “spontaneous responsive state” that you are able to train your students on day one? If so, then please share the training with us! If, what I understand takes a lot of training to achieve, can actually be learned on the first day, then this would be very valuable to me as a teacher and practitioner!


The "common way of reacting against aggression" aint so common when you consider the individual's personal threshold and perceptual catalyst(s) of those 'reactions'. I make a clear distinction between reaction and response. Reaction is what you 'think' you should do and response is what you do without thinking. Sure, you can train yourself to react without thought in sparring and what have you by drilling those reactions into your movement. Nothing wrong with that. But that's the path of prescribed method that tjq is supposed to lead one away from. It's like nailing one foot to the floor.

The state of spontaneous movement wiesiek is talking about has him connecting a 'non-martial' qigong to whatever martial content is found in the form he practices. Since the days of of EF I've been writing about certain qigong routines (Nine Temple Exercise, Five Animal) containing as much, or more 'martial content than the forms of Yang style and how tjq postures and sequences aren't a collection of applications/techniques - they're just a bunch of ideas for applying the movement sequences in any number of ways to suit the situation. I don't believe in techniques and have never drilled a single one or sought to affect any under pressure.

In answer to your question, yes and no. Neutrality principle is the central, inviolable precept of the type of work I was talking about. I've written lots of words about Neutrality Principle here at rsf and can't be bothered to repeat it all in this thread. In short, the drills I've developed are non-contextual, open-ended and serve no real purpose as far as martial skills development. The drills take an individual into a natural state where what you described :
Taijiquan wants the spontaneous ability to “follow” the opponent (sticking, adhering, connecting, following) without imposing our likes and dislikes, habits, reflexive responses, etc
is actually exactly the traits we're trying to explore rather than discard or eliminate from a player's natural dynamic. Those things you list are the path to understanding how an individual responds under pressure without preconceptions, or expectations of 'performance'. They comprise the mental/emotional component(s) of an individual's Personal Combat.

So what you wrote in the previous paragraph;
But when we engage in fighting, we must have training to remain “neutral” without the fear (flight) or anger (fight), resistance (fighting against) or collapsing (running away), excesses or deficiencies, etc. that are the common way of reacting against aggression
are, again, the types of things that should be thoroughly explored from day one. I've written about intermediary work as a way of exploring those things without all the fighty bullshit that obscures a clear view into the nature of those traits. I've developed other drills which are meant to test and challenge awareness, intuition and spontaneous response.

That type of work carries over quite easily into the solo training because I don't prescribe method or 'correct' posture. I leave it to the individual to self-correct through their study of the Thirteen Torso Methods and the insights Neutrality Principle imparts through the practical work we do in the drills. Proper training and time spent takes care of everything else.
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby LaoDan on Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:38 pm

Thanks Bruce,

I may just be dense, but even though I think that I understand this intellectually, I still do not see it as being easy to successfully translate into practice. I understood the OP as possibly referring what sports often call “being in the zone” or “in the flow” (the flow state) or even “unconscious”; but that state is not typically easy to achieve consistently, and much training seems to be a prerequisite. However one thinks that they achieve this state for their activity (e.g., through meditation, qigong, repetition, pre-activity rituals, superstitious practices, etc.), it does not seem to be a common state, nor does it seem to be easily reproducible. Training seems to increase the odds of sometimes achieving this state, but nothing appears to ensure achieving it (at least for us mere mortals).

While your reference to a “Neutrality Principle” will have numerous specific meanings to you, it seems to match my understanding as well (I have not noticed anything that I would disagree with whenever you have brought it up). I want to maintain mental, emotional, as well as physical neutrality when interacting with others. But this is like saying “act without ego” (i.e. neutral) which is intellectually understandable, but difficult to do.

For example, I practice TJQ because I like and enjoy it, which is NOT being neutral (likes and dislikes are not neutral), but it has motivated me to continuously maintain my practice since 1979 (although more as a hobbyist than as a more serious practitioner). I intellectually understand the idea behind forgetting oneself and merely following the opponent, but that does not mean that I do not consistently have errors (excesses and deficiencies); though less than perhaps many other (especially lesser trained) practitioners, the errors are still evident (at least to me).

I have undergone training where one person closes their eyes and follows another’s movements while attempting to maintain a constant pressure at the point of contact. But even when practitioners can do this well, it does not seem to translate into being able to do it well during free play (even in the relative safety of push-hands play) when the partner/opponent is trying to take advantage of mistakes to take and maintain control.

I seem to be missing something when you state that:
BruceP wrote:The "common way of reacting against aggression" aint so common when you consider the individual's personal threshold and perceptual catalyst(s) of those 'reactions'. I make a clear distinction between reaction and response. Reaction is what you 'think' you should do and response is what you do without thinking.

Much of what humans do as either reaction or response seem to be incorrect, and need training to correct. You seem to imply that “response” would be correct whereas “reactions” are often wrong?? This point is not sufficiently clear for me to understand.

BruceP wrote:... how tjq postures and sequences aren't a collection of applications/techniques - they're just a bunch of ideas for applying the movement sequences in any number of ways to suit the situation. I don't believe in techniques and have never drilled a single one or sought to affect any under pressure.

I also like the practice of responding to what is actually happening, rather than trying to impose specific techniques on an interaction. That being said, I do also practice techniques, but I try to view each interaction as unique, and I try to keep aware of even slight differences throughout the practice.

BruceP wrote:In short, the drills I've developed are non-contextual, open-ended and serve no real purpose as far as martial skills development. The drills take an individual into a natural state ...

I guess that I do not understand because I do not have the benefits of these drills that you have developed.
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby Steve Rowe on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:53 pm

I once said to Toru Takamizawa that Karate was natural movement and he said "wrong, it's skilled movement done naturally, a big difference".
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby KEND on Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:38 am

Since being bipedal is 'unnatural' anything we do after crawling is unnatural. Along the way we learn to use tools, walk upright etc all unnatural but necessary to function in a modern world. In doing so we may cause smaller muscle groups to atrophy, internal work brings back a more complete body movement rather than isolating movements to one part of the body.
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby BruceP on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:04 pm

Yeah

We have to work with our imperfect form. We gotta use our personal asymmetry and imbalance as our true balance and all that. Like the way we use tools, and do other tasks with a preferred side. None of that is relevant to the topic, though. But then again, it is.

'Internal' work has points of entry that can be found in the weaknesses and compensations that people possess coming into tjq and other types of physical cultures which purport to help people reclaim or discover their "more complete body movement".

What has always struck me as odd is that 'teachers' of the various types of physical culture start making 'corrections' right of the bat without regard for how people got to where they are in their current state. Their current state is their most 'natural' state, after all. Why not work with that? Applying Neutrality Principle from the outset...
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby BruceP on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:33 pm

LaoDan wrote:Thanks Bruce,

I may just be dense, but even though I think that I understand this intellectually, I still do not see it as being easy to successfully translate into practice... I want to maintain mental, emotional, as well as physical neutrality when interacting with others...

But this is like saying “act without ego” (i.e. neutral) which is intellectually understandable, but difficult to do...

I intellectually understand the idea behind forgetting oneself and merely following the opponent, but...


Intellectual neutrality is what the drills are meant to create more than anything else - at least on the first day.

I seem to be missing something when you state that:
BruceP wrote:The "common way of reacting against aggression" aint so common when you consider the individual's personal threshold and perceptual catalyst(s) of those 'reactions'. I make a clear distinction between reaction and response. Reaction is what you 'think' you should do and response is what you do without thinking.

Much of what humans do as either reaction or response seem to be incorrect, and need training to correct. You seem to imply that “response” would be correct whereas “reactions” are often wrong?? This point is not sufficiently clear for me to understand


There is no right or wrong on the first day. The way a person responds in the drills and solo work is what it is. Creating intellectual neutrality is the goal so they're not thinking about the movement or wondering if they're doing it the way they're being shown, or if they're emulating the movement as it's being demonstrated. Those thoughts can't be present if responsiveness is to be free and easy.
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Re: When form is doin` you

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:06 pm

KEND wrote:Since being bipedal is 'unnatural' anything we do after crawling is unnatural. Along the way we learn to use tools, walk upright etc all unnatural but necessary to function in a modern world. In doing so we may cause smaller muscle groups to atrophy, internal work brings back a more complete body movement rather than isolating movements to one part of the body.


Are you suggesting that something humans are designed to do, have evolved do, is unnatural

a learned behavior..?

Humans are bipedal, freeing and allowing the use of hands. All a natural product of evolution.
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