The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:34 am

I do agree about "weapon less"(free)sparring/fighting that the risk of injures are greater and I would say probably so in many TCM and TJQ probably due to lack of proper sparring mentality....hell even push-hand practice often degenerate to a non learning tool some times due to an overly confident"fighting" or "mysticism" mentality......Probably the best place to get proper "empty hand" sparring would be in a established Boxing-gym......for my own deal I have my mind on fencing even Japanese fencing, it looks as fun in its seriousness, and that's of course a very important part, to have fun.
Trick

 

Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:51 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
Bao wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Funny how those who don't practice tai chi or even if they do think other arts are superior
Know more about tai chi than those that do


Yup.

It's easy to say that something doesn't work when you are not willing to walk the road.

martensfs wrote:Now hippies sing songs of softness and never test their art.


You mix up things. Not testing an art doesn't mean it doesn't work. You need to test it first. A lot. You need to fight a lot using T'ai chi to make T'ai chi work. Replacing T'ai chi with something else instead of trying to make it work doesn't mean that the other thing is better than what you didn't have patience to make work.

Last year a foreigner that had been studying Taijiquan for a number of years came to visit my Master for about ten days.
... He had been lead astray - down a path of softness and relaxation that never delivered the fighting results that he wanted.


For how long had that person practiced T'ai chi? What style and for whom? How much had he tried to use it in fighting? How tried he to used it? In real fighting? sparring?

...You need to put some more meat to your arguments...

I can assure that I'm not mixed up. If your Taiji teacher can fight and, after several years of training with him, you can't, then there is something wrong. The person that I refer to studied Wu style and had been learning for five to six years and regularly sparred. Still, he says, he feels that his master didn't teach him many things. It shouldn't take that long. He has been deceived.

The replacing Taiji with other things part is exactly what I said not to do!

I don't know but maybe the Wu-Taiji in Harbin are of the same group down in Dalian. If I remember right them in Dalian comes from Shanghai linage, they just popped up there in the park about 8-9 years ago. One of the groups that practiced just next to us in the park did some push practice where two participants take a handshake grip and then push against each other's centerline try to get the other to take a step back? they did this for about two hours as a "king of the hill" thing, they asked me to join in, it was all a game of muscle strength from them
Trick

 

Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:54 am

Trick wrote:I would think that your friend from Harbin has not been practicing very sincerely. The "strong" relaxedness you will eventually get comes from, how can I describe it? a regular day to day practice of relaxed subconscious dynamic-tension practice for your musclefibers that also put your body structure in a desirable alignment.....this you can get just from the Form practice...Yes from Form practice, it actually build strength, it's kind of an mind and bodybuilding tool....but it takes time a lot of time and devotion for most to get(at least it did for me) it right......Now here are many Fighters on this board that will probably say one can only develop the strength and proper relaxedness from fighting and fighting again...sure throu sparring/fighting one will get to another level......Now it's many many years ago I did any kind of (free)sparring and weight training, but still keep good relaxed strength just trou Forms practice....It's almost unbelievable :)


Good post 8-)

People just don't get that strength in T'ai chi comes from building strength through relaxation. They don't understand that fajin doesn't come from adding strength to their relaxation, but from relaxing more. They don't believe it because they haven't walked the road to the end where they can start to realize this.

I am surprised that a person who claims to have practice an art of XY have hard to understand. Standing in a Santishi and relaxing through the pain is the perfect way to get an idea about developing the use of deeper core muscles. Pole shaking has the same goal, it's about using the core of the body. T'ai Chi body core use is developed mainly through form practice. But Tai Chi fighting skills are not developed through "feeling strength", it's all developed through learning how to be able to relax very deep regardless of the situation. Only if you understand this, you will know how to always use whole body strength from your deep core muscles.

martensfs wrote:I can assure that I'm not mixed up. If your Taiji teacher can fight and, after several years of training with him, you can't, then there is something wrong.


I don't think so. You don't automatically end up with a teacher's experience just by studying for him. If someone is raised in a very tough area and have been fighting for half of his life, that teacher can never teach you what he knows by experience. There's much more into a fighting mentality than technical practice.

The person that I refer to studied Wu style and had been learning for five to six years and regularly sparred. Still, he says, he feels that his master didn't teach him many things. It shouldn't take that long. He has been deceived.


So the teacher didn't teach him enough? That doesn't mean that the method or the school itself is wrong. Five years is not a long time, though I believe that anyone who has practice for so long should be able to use their knowledge in self defense situations pretty good. Sparring with T'ai chi is still slightly different. If you have a common sparring mind-set T'ai chi doesn't work very well. There are certain methods and strategies to use and follow. But very few understand this though.

MaartenSFS wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Funny how those who don't practice tai chi or even if they do think other arts are superior
Know more about tai chi than those that do

It's funny how people can't read. Nowhere did I state that.


Lol! ;D
Last edited by Bao on Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:05 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
Trick wrote:I would think that your friend from Harbin has not been practicing very sincerely. The "strong" relaxedness you will eventually get comes from, how can I describe it? a regular day to day practice of relaxed subconscious dynamic-tension practice for your musclefibers that also put your body structure in a desirable alignment.....this you can get just from the Form practice...Yes from Form practice, it actually build strength, it's kind of an mind and bodybuilding tool....but it takes time a lot of time and devotion for most to get(at least it did for me) it right......Now here are many Fighters on this board that will probably say one can only develop the strength and proper relaxedness from fighting and fighting again...sure throu sparring/fighting one will get to another level......Now it's many many years ago I did any kind of (free)sparring and weight training, but still keep good relaxed strength just trou Forms practice....It's almost unbelievable :)

He practised quite sincerely. I'm not against forms practise, but the masters I have met that could fight all trained individual movements, often with weights. Of course, they fought too. :P

Yes my Taiji teacher in Dalian has apart from the swords and Sabres also heavy bags, strike pads weight equipment in his small WuGuan that mainly serve as a storage for his collection of antiques, so no room to practice in there. I only seen him do "weight" practice where he kind of juggles with a shot-put "ball" reminded me of my own practice I used to do back in Sweden swing an about a meter long steel rod around my body in different (own invented) patterns, it weight 7,2 kilos. I like that kind of practice since it not involve "dead" lifts that isolate a specific muscle, it requires a kind of flow
Trick

 

Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:37 am

Bao wrote: People just don't get that strength in T'ai chi comes from building strength through relaxation. They don't understand that fajin doesn't come from adding strength to their relaxation, but from relaxing more. They don't believe it because they haven't walked the road to the end where they can start to realize this.

I am surprised that a person who claims to have practice an art of XY have hard to understand. Standing in a Santishi and relaxing through the pain is the perfect way to get an idea about developing the use of deeper core muscles. Pole shaking has the same goal, it's about using the core of the body. T'ai Chi body core use is developed mainly through form practice. But Tai Chi fighting skills are not developed through "feeling strength", it's all developed through learning how to be able to relax very deep regardless of the situation. Only if you understand this, you will know how to always use whole body strength from your deep core muscles.

Yes Taijiquan practice is not an easy thing(until one gets it), many don't feel any real benefit from it even after years of practice so many quit, those who are younger quit because they want to fight and they want to be able to quickly fight superior so they take up other "quicker" martial arts because one is not young forever, maybe they "fall back" to Taijiquan when they have fought away their desire of being a fighter......Actually that's when I really began to feel the benefits of Taijiquan practice, when I threw away the fighting mentality.
Trick

 

Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:55 am

Our school in Penang only used traditional methods
They were not against bags,weights and strength training
However they did it in an internal manner
A lot of the students came from external styles
They didn't come because they wanted something easier
They came because they were bested in combat
All comers were taken on Shaolin,Thai boxing,Silat
Sure some traditional schools suck,so do some students
I can read what is written but some times I just get bored by the subject or the low quality of the discourse
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Ron Panunto on Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:41 am

Most taiji is taught for stress relief and (fake?) relaxation. Most of the people who are attracted to taiji, including most women, are not the aggressive fighting type. It sounds like your foreign friend simply chose the wrong teacher.
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby charles on Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:22 am

MaartenSFS wrote:...That type of training is the Yang part of the art that few masters teach, let alone have. It wasn't taught to everyone. It's one of the key ingredients to making an art work.

I'm not going to sacrifice my body in the hopes that some people may believe that CMA has some amazing things to offer that are unique in the martial arts world and worth preserving. In sparring I can either go all out and risk seriously injuring my opponent (and myself if they are just better at fighting than me) or go softly and risk people saying that it's worthless. It can also go horribly wrong in the other direction....

At least with the sword fighting we can fence full-contact and there is minimal risk due to modern protective gear and people will immediately understand. I will literally take on all comers and have. I can't do the same thing with unarmed fighting. It requires too much trust on both ends.

When I leave there will be no one that will receive the [weapons] full-transmission and it will die out.


You state that one of the key ingredients to making the art work isn't taught to everyone, that is, the "yang" training. You state that one must fight/spare with the art to gain mastery of it. You also state that training that with a partner or opponent has a high risk of injury. For that reason you won't be teaching empty-hand engagement. Instead, you'll be teaching only weapon (sword) engagement, since, you believe, the risk of injury is lessened by doing so.

That makes me wonder weather or not one can effectively learn to use the art in an empty-hand encounter if one has only trained weapons in an encounter. Unless one walks around with a sword in their pocket, fighting those who also have a sword in their pocket, it doesn't seem like a practical or "real world" choice of defence. While teaching that might prevent the "full-trasmission" of weapons practice from dying out, I can't help but wonder if the core of empty hands practice and application will not be transmitted.

In short, I'm a little confused by your statements. You'll keep the transmission of the "true" art alive by only teaching a small, safer part of the art, the part that uses weapons against weapons?

One of the difficulties in learning a "true", practical, martial art is that martial arts, by their very nature, involve physical risk of injury. One of the reasons that many Taiji "players" don't engage in sparing is for that very reason: if one is practicing to improve and maintain one's health, where does engaging in a practice that is likely to cause one injury fit into that goal? Competitive sport, for example, can be a different goal, one that many who do so will accept some risk of injury. What is the distinction between what you will be teaching - fully padded/protected sparing with minimal risk of injury - and competitive sport? How does that relate to traditional martial arts practice "on the battlefield"? In other words, what is the relationship between what you will be teaching and the traditional skills and environment who's "transmission" you are trying to prevent from dying-out?
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby willie on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:36 am

Martin's argument doesn't make any sense at all, But I imagine it will be entertaining none the less.
willie

 

Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby willie on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:43 am

Trick wrote:Yes Taijiquan practice is not an easy thing(until one gets it), many don't feel any real benefit from it even after years of practice so many quit, those who are younger quit because they want to fight and they want to be able to quickly fight superior so they take up other "quicker" martial arts because one is not young forever, maybe they "fall back" to Taijiquan when they have fought away their desire of being a fighter......Actually that's when I really began to feel the benefits of Taijiquan practice, when I threw away the fighting mentality.

This is a very, very, good post. I mostly agree, but it may not be that the fight has left the person from his own free will. That's all I'm going to say about that for now. Thank you for that post
willie

 

Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby johnwang on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:44 am

willie wrote:Martin's argument doesn't make any sense at all, But I imagine it will be entertaining none the less.

Martin's argument makes perfect sense to me. As I have always said, you can't "soft" your opponent to death. You will need something else. That's the missing half - the finish moves (or the hardness).
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby willie on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:53 am

Trick wrote:I like that kind of practice since it not involve "dead" lifts that isolate a specific muscle, it requires a kind of flow

I'm going to address this post because it wasn't made in Malice over the fact that I had just mentioned doing deadlifts.
Deadlift is probably the most modest and least selfish of all of the weight training exercises. The majority of weightlifters that I see in the gym don't even do them for that exact reason. Doing deadlifts isn't for show, it's for go. The deadlift don't make you look a lot bigger. they don't make your chest pop out. Things like that if you know what I mean. What they do do is force the body to be able to handle more and more Force. An example is one time I was in a crew and they asked me to squat 405 pounds. I was only 150 pounds at that time. When I try to put that kind of weight on my back., my spine was unable to handle the forces. Doing deadlifts change that. You will be directly enhancing your body and it will naturally be able to handle more forces.
Last edited by willie on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:34 pm

johnwang wrote:Martin's argument makes perfect sense to me. As I have always said, you can't "soft" your opponent to death.


Of course you can “soft” your opponent to death. You can drown someone in water or strangle someone with a cloth. Water and cloth are not “hard”, they are soft. It’s how you use the tools that matters.

You will need something else. That's the missing half - the finish moves (or the hardness)


You don’t need anything else than what the body already have. The seven stars are all hard, solid parts of the body. Power is built from acceleration+mass. All you need is to develop speed and use your mass in an efficient manner. No other hardness is necessary.

What everyone need though, is methods to learn about their own individual weaknesses and strengths. Adding hardness and developing weapons won’t help you to stay calm or help you remember to breath when someone wants to hurt you for real.
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:04 pm

Most chokes and arm bars in bjj are soft
I was shown where they exist in my soft form and how to apply them
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby willie on Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:29 pm

johnwang wrote:
willie wrote:Martin's argument doesn't make any sense at all, But I imagine it will be entertaining none the less.

Martin's argument makes perfect sense to me. As I have always said, you can't "soft" your opponent to death. You will need something else. That's the missing half - the finish moves (or the hardness).
hi John. Martin's argument doesn't make any sense to me for a couple good reason 's. The first is that Martin decided to belittle somebody who did know what they were talking about. which proves that he does not know what he's talking about. The second is Yang is not missing from my style of Tai Chi. It is also not missing from my teacher or his teachers and all the way right to the top. So where does he get this impression that yang is missing in Tai Chi? Obviously it is from training with people who teach for free in the Parks. They never had it to begin with. As you remember I had cautioned people about listening to people and third-party opinions and instruction from people who are too far off of the course of a well-known and respected lineage. This is not to say that people in the Parks don't have any skill. But that doesn't mean that the skills that they have acquired are going to lead anyone to a complete understanding. In a recent post by strange, he had made a remark about people seeming to have acquired their understanding of the art strictly from a commercialized view point. He also mentioned like trying to piece together a whole cookie by duplicating the crumbs. You will never have a complete understanding in that fashion.
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