The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:31 pm

windwalker wrote:I had asked about a way you deliver energy as outlined in your website. Because you list wave as one way of Deliverance and yet you talk about striking trees and bags and things.

Each method can deliver energy using a different format.

With a wave there is no soft or hard it's only the timing at the point of contact.

The other method uses the mass itself to deliver the kinetic energy like a baseball bat hitting a baseball.

The training for each as I have found seems to be very different which is why I asked about your training

Yes, we train the different Jin differently. Zhenjin creates a wave. Shuaibeishou is more like a wrecking ball. Both are trained differently, but can be trained in more than one way. Both also apply to weapons and can be trained differently there as well. That's why I learned his swordsmanship so rapidly - because it was building upon what I'd already trained for over three years. Hopefully I've answered your question in there somewhere.. :P
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:37 pm

Subitai wrote:
johnwang wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:The Missing Half of Taijiquan...

Your concern doesn't start today. Back in 1928 people already expressed the same concern. Here is a list of the top 15 finishes. Almost all of them studied northern styles most being either Long fist or Xing Yi.

There were not a single person from the Taiji system. Why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1928 National Guo Shu fighting Competitiion results and some questions

朱国福(上海 形意)、 Xing Yi
王云鹏(河南 少林)、Shaolin
张长义(上海 形意)、Xing Yi
马裕甫(山东 查拳)、Long Fist (Cha Quan)
张英振(山东 查拳)、Long fist (Cha Quan)
窦来庚(山东 太乙门)、Tai Yi Men
杨法武(山东 摔跤、查拳)、Long fist (Cha Quan) Shuai jiao
杨士文(山东 迷踪拳)、Long fist (Mi Zong)
顾汝章(江苏 少林)、Shaolin
王成章(上海 洪拳) 、Hong quan (not sure if northern or southern
朱国桢(河北 形意)、Xing Yi
张维通(山西 六合拳)、Xing yi liu he Quan
朱国禄(河北 形意)、Xing Yi
马承智(安徽 少林)、Shaolin
胡炯(江西 字门拳)。Zi Men Quan (This is the only southern style)



You know... "A" story I heard about this competition was that there were less than 15 winning medals actually. When they started, the fights were on a Lei Tai... there were allot of fighters. Someone could loose by: Getting knocked off, getting something broken or seriously injured or conceding defeat. In the beginning the lower level fighters were easily eliminated. But when you started getting down to the final bunch of fighters that's when the fighting got more serious because now the SKILLED fighters are the only ones left and they have pride and ego to not be easliy defeated. More and more were under the risk of being seriously hurt. So they decided to stop it at 15 fighters left.

Interesting that John points this out i.e....that no Taiji was really used. Mabe some were used however...but they didn't make it to the end, that's a possibility.

Shamefull plug: I know of at least one of these 15 because he is an ancestor in my lineage: Gu Ru Zhang

What's interesting is that as typical to what my research into the subject and just plain asking other people's heritage was that MOST (but not all) fighters in the past that had used Taiji successfully...as far as I know.... ALSO studied other arts 1st and also learned to build up the body. Giving credence to the saying that Taiji is really a graduate level art that you really learn to use only after your body and skill have matured enough. I described in a post way back my experience visiting Chen village and how hard the younger people trained before they concentrated on form.

It seems as if there was a period where allot of people who weren't interested in fighting so they progressed with their Taiji ...but in a more SOFT not combat version. I know that won't be well received by all the Taiji Almightyists on this board...who cares.

Now, what is different today (modern era) or what seems like... is that there are a FEW teachers who are supposidly ONLY Teaching Taiji, but are adding in harder skills to try and make it more well rounded. That is if you intend to fight with it. I personally think it's the individual not so much the style...you're either a fighter at heart or not, it can't really be taught.

There is a common saying for sure in Southern kung fu styles...I don't know how old it is and I can't butcher the Cantonese to try and write it in English but it goes to the effect of: "Train Hard (Hard skills) in Kung Fu while you're young and not just Forms...Or your kung fu be useless in old age"


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Other observations for this thread:
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* I think Willie's comments about his "dead lift" and how it affects his strength structure is insightful. I had a brief college football coach (All American) who would certainly agree with him.


* MaartenSFS Said:
" If your opponent is a striker and doesn't let you close in arm-bars and chokes will not be enough to end the fight."


"O"= Careful bro, you're starting to sound too insightful. That could be Good or Bad. You sound like a discussion from the late 90's... that is also a trap that many TMA have fallen for. Striker VS Grappler, Chicken or the egg.

What I mean by that is that you're either being very smart and are opening up another whole can of UFC/NHB/MMA worms or UH OH, are you really going to go there?!!!

Good points.

Let me rephrase what I wrote.. People that study BJJ also have to train in striking to make it in the UFC. On the same token, people that study striking also need to train some wrestling/grappling to survive in the cage. Common sense, really.. ;D I just mean that we can't pigeonhole ourselves and need to address the various aspects of combat in our training, whether it's a soft art or a harder one. That's why I said that the Yang is what's missing in most Taijiquan schools today. Those that don't agree are probably either Zhang Sanfeng or they've not done much sparring.. :P

And, as has been mentioned a billion times before, the most high-level Taijiquan was always developed after a lot of hard, "external" work and is more of a graduate level martial art, which is why most Taiji masters studied something else first. They forgot how they got there in the first place and threw out the baby with the bathwater..
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:35 pm

willie wrote:
Trick wrote:I like that kind of practice since it not involve "dead" lifts that isolate a specific muscle, it requires a kind of flow

I'm going to address this post because it wasn't made in Malice over the fact that I had just mentioned doing deadlifts.
Deadlift is probably the most modest and least selfish of all of the weight training exercises. The majority of weightlifters that I see in the gym don't even do them for that exact reason. Doing deadlifts isn't for show, it's for go. The deadlift don't make you look a lot bigger. they don't make your chest pop out. Things like that if you know what I mean. What they do do is force the body to be able to handle more and more Force. An example is one time I was in a crew and they asked me to squat 405 pounds. I was only 150 pounds at that time. When I try to put that kind of weight on my back., my spine was unable to handle the forces. Doing deadlifts change that. You will be directly enhancing your body and it will naturally be able to handle more forces.

I agree when talking about that actual deadlift exercise, it is a very important exercise for the serious weightlifter. If I from a young age was not so strongly drawn to explore the EastAsian Martialarts I probably would go wholeheartedly for weightlifting probably also fencing since my father was into those and my older brother was a competitive powerlifter
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:46 pm

johnwang wrote:As I have always said, you can't "soft" your opponent to death. You will need something else. .

If you would wrestle a physically stronger but yet technically inferior opponent are you going to charge head on or will you consider another strategy.
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby willie on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:50 pm

Trick wrote:I agree when talking about that actual deadlift exercise, it is a very important exercise for the serious weightlifter. If I from a young age was not so strongly drawn to explore the EastAsian Martialarts I probably would go wholeheartedly for weightlifting probably also fencing since my father was into those and my older brother was a competitive powerlifter
if only ? so drawn to the East Asian martial arts? Weightlifting and powerlifting only makes you better. Do you really feel that if somebody has mastered a technique of any East Asian art that he would lose it just because he decided to go weightlifting?
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Trick on Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:54 am

MaartenSFS wrote:It's so easy to mislead in Taijiquan. In a lot of schools, the whole process is drawn out and one must put a lot of trust in the teacher. All too often, they abuse that trust.

Interestingly what I've seen the drawn out process was/is mainly a method done in the "west" often by "westerners"
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Trick on Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:02 am

johnwang wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:The Missing Half of Taijiquan...

Your concern doesn't start today. Back in 1928 people already expressed the same concern. Here is a list of the top 15 finishes. Almost all of them studied northern styles most being either Long fist or Xing Yi.

There were not a single person from the Taiji system. Why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1928 National Guo Shu fighting Competitiion results and some questions

朱国福(上海 形意)、 Xing Yi
王云鹏(河南 少林)、Shaolin
张长义(上海 形意)、Xing Yi
马裕甫(山东 查拳)、Long Fist (Cha Quan)
张英振(山东 查拳)、Long fist (Cha Quan)
窦来庚(山东 太乙门)、Tai Yi Men
杨法武(山东 摔跤、查拳)、Long fist (Cha Quan) Shuai jiao
杨士文(山东 迷踪拳)、Long fist (Mi Zong)
顾汝章(江苏 少林)、Shaolin
王成章(上海 洪拳) 、Hong quan (not sure if northern or southern
朱国桢(河北 形意)、Xing Yi
张维通(山西 六合拳)、Xing yi liu he Quan
朱国禄(河北 形意)、Xing Yi
马承智(安徽 少林)、Shaolin
胡炯(江西 字门拳)。Zi Men Quan (This is the only southern style)

The Taiji guys where the high organizers and referees in that event 8-) 8-) ....yes I myself have wondered about this, where there even Taijiquan competitors in that event? And where's all the southern styles from Fujian and Guangdong ? Where they not allowed into the competition?
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Re: The Missing Half of Taijiquan..

Postby Trick on Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:16 am

willie wrote:
Trick wrote:I agree when talking about that actual deadlift exercise, it is a very important exercise for the serious weightlifter. If I from a young age was not so strongly drawn to explore the EastAsian Martialarts I probably would go wholeheartedly for weightlifting probably also fencing since my father was into those and my older brother was a competitive powerlifter
if only ? so drawn to the East Asian martial arts? Weightlifting and powerlifting only makes you better. Do you really feel that if somebody has mastered a technique of any East Asian art that he would lose it just because he decided to go weightlifting?

My first 15 years of Japanese/Chinese MA's training I also did weight training, but then I found something else that was very fascinating
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