No palm stick/kubotan in TCMA?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: No palm stick/kubotan in TCMA?

Postby edededed on Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:13 pm

Interesting - I thought it was a bit like aikido's yonkyo (4th teaching) in that the hold causes pain via direct pressure to the bone (but the kubotan's shape and material will cause more pain than just via the hand).

I was thinking, though, how much resistance two thumbs could give if the recipient of the kubotan hold strongly, sharply tries to cut through them with his arm to get free.
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Re: No palm stick/kubotan in TCMA?

Postby klonk on Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:57 pm

edededed wrote:Interesting - I thought it was a bit like aikido's yonkyo (4th teaching) in that the hold causes pain via direct pressure to the bone (but the kubotan's shape and material will cause more pain than just via the hand).

I was thinking, though, how much resistance two thumbs could give if the recipient of the kubotan hold strongly, sharply tries to cut through them with his arm to get free.


You are right again on the flaw in the hold. However, you can roll/turn with the opponent as you put the kubotan on him, to get a good angle: one that is difficult to resist. It would take a lot of samurai fortitude to pull out of a well applied #2 wrist lock.

To escape: Forward pressure, pushing toward the wider part of your arm, and doing it before the squeeze is fully applied, is a good idea.

No weapon is unbeatable.

Tak Kubota, the American Japanese who popularized the weapon, liked to refer to it as "a tool of attitude adjustment." I will not demand of the weapon more than that. I will criticize it on John Wang's terms, though, There is no finishing technique. Oh, you could kill a man with a kubotan if you thought about how to do it long enough, but you can do the same with most anything.
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: No palm stick/kubotan in TCMA?

Postby edededed on Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:27 pm

It looks like a unique weapon for sure!

Poking people is a method that seems shared with CMA! :D
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Re: No palm stick/kubotan in TCMA?

Postby klonk on Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:44 pm

edededed wrote:It looks like a unique weapon for sure!

Poking people is a method that seems shared with CMA! :D


Odd how the poking-points chart looks a lot like something a Chinese doctor would draw. ;)

A part of me wants to put down the kuboton as a cheap parlor trick. It is the bone pressure equivalent of kancho. It will elicit a big response if unexpected.

On the other hand, if the cop goes home safe and the criminal is in the clink, good enough for government work.
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Re: No palm stick/kubotan in TCMA?

Postby edededed on Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:29 pm

At the least, it seems a bit like a strong, metal pen that can be used to poke people with! The grip makes it hard to lose it as well.
Using it like a hammerfist to the temples or between the ribs could be lethal in that sense!

I always wanted to learn the judges' pens. Alas, my teacher forgot most of what he learned!
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Re: No palm stick/kubotan in TCMA?

Postby klonk on Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:04 pm

I don't know the judges' pens either, but it looks like the method could be used as a source for some deceptive kubotan strikes.

As you point out, the kubotan is not without finishing techniques, but they are discontinuous with the grappling uses of the weapon.

Likely I am being too critical of the kubotan. It does what the cop needs, in certain circumstances. He uses a pain compliance wrist hold to take the suspect to the ground, then applies the handcuffs. It occurs to me that the same type of hold could be used to draw an opponent into an unbalanced posture from which he falls heavily. That would be a better outcome for the private citizen using a kubotan, who lacks handcuffs and backup cops on the way.

Something that appeals to me about this sort of weapon is that many innocent everyday objects, things that can be carried where a weapon cannot be taken, can be used in the same way.
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Re: No palm stick/kubotan in TCMA?

Postby klonk on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:38 pm

A further point occurs to me. If you have to use a kubotan in self-defense, you are probably in a better legal position in the aftermath if you used the pressure point digs and presses and the pain holds, rather than hauling off with your best hammerfist with the kubotan sticking out of the bottom of your fist. That last might well be construed as using deadly force, which (in this locality at least) can be ruled justifiable--but it is likely you will go to trial, and the definitions of justification are narrow.

None of which should inhibit you from doing what you need to in an assault situation, so that you die another day. The courts cannot try you if you are dead, but it is not a comforting kind of immunity.
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