Song, what does it mean?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby charles on Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:56 am

windwalker wrote:I would have figured you'd work it out but maybe not.


I'm just not that smart. But, I appreciate you're taking the time and effort to help me do so.

Very easy to understand, actually I covered it but you seemed to have missed it awhile back.


Reading it and understanding it are two different things. ;)

In answer to your questions. Its a different model.


Indeed it is. The question in my mind is that while the model is different is the actuality the same: are we using different models to describe the same behaviour? I'm not sure.



that turned really well :P


Sure, it had it's detractors, but your explanation provides some elucidation to your understanding and the model you use. I appreciate that.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby rojcewiczj on Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:06 am

Willie, I think you are right. It seems to me that the main skill in preserving and applying Song is in how to separate the effort from the load. Meaning, how to separate the force one exerts on their opponent from the load which their resistance offers. In my experience, when I apply my center to my opponent, without locking my joints, then the majority of the load can be held by my central axis, leaving my limbs freedom to express force. The load goes to my center, so that my effort is not directly against the load, creating leverage. Without applying the center as a fulcrum, then my effort is always in the same place as my opponents resistance (the load). I feel that working with weights and rubber cord resistance has greatly increased my ability to do this. It is like putting on a backpack which allows your arms to move freely. If you can "put on" your opponents resistance like a back pack, then your limbs are free to do what you want.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby charles on Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:10 am

willie wrote:Fang song ... It's about keeping the load off of the joints so that the joints are open and move unimpeded. "A fly would set taichi in motion"


In other words, represented (modelled) by a well-oiled gear train. I think you've stated your understanding clearly. Thank you for doing so and for posting WHJ's statement.

Windwalker uses a different model, one I'm not familiar with. Rather than simply dismiss what I don't know, I'm interested in understanding it. Once I understand it, I can assess how valid I think it is. Dismissing it out of hand because I'm certain that what I'm familiar with is right, and since his is different it must therefore be wrong, isn't a very effective method of learning. There is lots that I don't know and I use what opportunities I can to learn more.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:02 am

rojcewiczj wrote:Willie, I think you are right. It seems to me that the main skill in preserving and applying Song is in how to separate the effort from the load. Meaning, how to separate the force one exerts on their opponent from the load which their resistance offers. In my experience, when I apply my center to my opponent, without locking my joints, then the majority of the load can be held by my central axis, leaving my limbs freedom to express force. The load goes to my center, so that my effort is not directly against the load, creating leverage. Without applying the center as a fulcrum, then my effort is always in the same place as my opponents resistance (the load). I feel that working with weights and rubber cord resistance has greatly increased my ability to do this. It is like putting on a backpack which allows your arms to move freely. If you can "put on" your opponents resistance like a back pack, then your limbs are free to do what you want.

That's right, You got it now!
In one of my prior post I had spoke about the yielding strength of a coiled spring. The opponent's Force is isolated into that coiled spring. This leaves the rest of the body uninhibited. It's like you had just stated, you put their Force into a backpack. Now the next stage is 2 explode that backpack. Use the force that they gave you and now unpack it. The coiled spring represents a non-rigid or non stick like body. It represents a suspension system. The coil spring is the yielding strength of the quads. In order to see how that works I have posted a different post about a truck's payload a page or two back, I think that that example will do. Then later and perhaps even more advanced , it depends on how you view it, that backpack is actually just the qi itself being compressed, that's why I made the other post on a shock absorber system similar to nitrous oxide. Qi is the gas inside . Thank you
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby Trick on Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:12 am

willie wrote:
rojcewiczj wrote:Willie, I think you are right. It seems to me that the main skill in preserving and applying Song is in how to separate the effort from the load. Meaning, how to separate the force one exerts on their opponent from the load which their resistance offers. In my experience, when I apply my center to my opponent, without locking my joints, then the majority of the load can be held by my central axis, leaving my limbs freedom to express force. The load goes to my center, so that my effort is not directly against the load, creating leverage. Without applying the center as a fulcrum, then my effort is always in the same place as my opponents resistance (the load). I feel that working with weights and rubber cord resistance has greatly increased my ability to do this. It is like putting on a backpack which allows your arms to move freely. If you can "put on" your opponents resistance like a back pack, then your limbs are free to do what you want.

That's right, You got it now!
In one of my prior post I had spoke about the yielding strength of a coiled spring. The opponent's Force is isolated into that coiled spring. This leaves the rest of the body uninhibited. It's like you had just stated, you put their Force into a backpack. Now the next stage is 2 explode that backpack. Use the force that they gave you and now unpack it. The coiled spring represents a non-rigid or non stick like body. It represents a suspension system. The coil spring is the yielding strength of the quads. In order to see how that works I have posted a different post about a truck's payload a page or two back, I think that that example will do. Then later and perhaps even more advanced , it depends on how you view it, that backpack is actually just the qi itself being compressed, that's why I made the other post on a shock absorber system similar to nitrous oxide. Qi is the gas inside . Thank you

Mirror mirror on the wall who's the best riddler of all.....So now we have except for the snow covered tree branch also coiled springs, suspension systems, trucks, exploding backpacks and a while ago a picture of some sort of drill machinery 8-)
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:01 pm

Trick wrote:Mirror mirror on the wall who's the best riddler of all.....So now we have except for the snow covered tree branch also coiled springs, suspension systems, trucks, exploding backpacks and a while ago a picture of some sort of drill machinery 8-)


Please, No, Not the machinery, Oh boy! Don't get me going...did someone say CLOSE, LOL!

Image
Last edited by willie on Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby Subitai on Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:57 pm

18 pages for this...
As a Westerner myself, I'll throw myself also at fault (even though it's my only post on here)... AND I will say that "WE" talk too much about the things easily explained face to face and feeling.

About Song, IMO it's that basic element or skill missing from most of the students or victims that FALL or Jump / stomp away needlessly in all the Demos we love to pick on. There are some videos of: Push ==> MIZNER <== Peppers that come to mind, :P

I can't say how many times i've (and others here) have spoken about relaxing the shoulder and sinking the elbow (creating that Divot at the top of the shoulder separation). NO, it's not describing Song for the ENTIRE body...but it's what i've been getting at the entire time. For example, I often teach how to "wall push" as a solo exercise to my students. If you have proper peng structure and also relaxed connection, you will not fall or jump / stomp back in such silly ways. It is possible to be moved, but not Jump/Stomp away!

One example: you can take a weight scale held with both hands and push (horizontally) for example with it against a wall. Get it up to 50lbs push force for example, then someone could PULL or Slap your arms away and you wouldn't fall. You could also do it VS another person pushing against you and they could suddenly EMPTY out or remove their hands to see if you'd fall forward...but you won't if done correctly. This is just one example of this type of skill.

What I haven't seen mentioned too much is also where the mind / intent goes...in offense or defensively it can change direction or focus of where and what you relax.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby Trip on Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:03 pm

From Graham's Blog
Titled: Heavy Dantien
http://www.taichinotebook.wordpress.com

GrahamB wrote:Heavy Dantien

This is a great clip of Chen Bing teaching a basic silk reeling circle with a lot of emphasis on relaxing and being heavy.

People often wonder how being relaxed can generate power in martial arts. If you watch the video you can see how being relaxed in the upper body leads to great power in the lower body. And once you have that power in the lower body you can start to use it to drive your movements. Of course, there’s more to it than that, but it’s a start.


https://vimeo.com/51233635
Last edited by Trip on Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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