leg strength has a lot to do with it. Isolating the load into the quads is key for relieving the pressure on the hip joints. Song kuaslowEdie wrote:
In the context of TJQ, sung cannot be achieved without the necessary leg strength,
so eat bitter.
leg strength has a lot to do with it. Isolating the load into the quads is key for relieving the pressure on the hip joints. Song kuaslowEdie wrote:
In the context of TJQ, sung cannot be achieved without the necessary leg strength,
so eat bitter.
Interloper wrote:
Hi willie,
I agree -- most of these internal arts seem to lack a clear teaching language, and instead use metaphors, songs, and riddles. Probably in part, so that deep concepts could be kept secret, and also, in part, because the teachers themselves did not really understand
willie wrote:I think that what really happened was Chinese had came to United States and the Americans were very interested in them and their culture. So it was very easy for these Chinese immigrants who may have only had a little bit of skill to get a lot of students. So the transmission that those students received was not real and it spread throughout the land. Even the Chinese who did know the real skills did not want to transfer it to foreigners. So it was easy for a Chinese immigrant to come to the United States or other countries and just because they were Chinese it was easy for them to get students and make money.
yeah I have to agree with this, I actually was told a lot of things directly about the events that really happened. Also, I don't think that there was anyone who was teaching in the United States who did have a complete transmission. Except for maybe one or two. Remember there was no video back then so nobody knew what was right and what was wrong. So it was easy to pass off what appeared to be the real deal. There was a story that I heard about people who practiced Aikido that went to Japan in search of the Mysteries that surrounded the art. When they got there the Japanese told them that if they wanted to learn the more fighty part of Aikido, then they would have to go to a certain School. when they got to the school they were very disappointed because the teacher was a white guy named Steven Seagal. They wanted it to be a Japanese guy. Now I know this isn't talking about song but it is definitely evidence of what this current conversation has evolved into. ThanksInterloper wrote:
Yes, that corroborates my thought on teachers wanting to hide the "goods," and of those who had incomplete skill sets to begin with and who thus were lacking the material and the teaching methods.
I've also had plenty of exposure to teachers in the US who have skills but do not share them. They string along students and seminar participants, collecting their money and giving them external shells of exercises, pointless without the internal drivers that were intended to give them substance.
But, I'm not just speaking of these arts being taught to Westerners -- I'm also thinking of what was going on in the arts' native lands and regions. In Japan, for example, aiki ("internals") was taught to select individuals, not necessarily to everyone who walked through the doors of a dojo -- not even many long-time, dedicated students. Everyone else got... "stuff." Maybe perfectly good jujutsu and even shoden (first or beginning level) aiki training, but not the deeper meat-and-potatoes of internal method.
My understanding of China is that even there, often only the son/children of a master teacher, or his very top disciple or two, would receive a full transmission, in some systems. Also, Mao's cultural revolution saw the mass wiping out of many martial arts schools' top teachers, and the watering down of a number of arts so that very few individuals remain today who have a full education and transmission in their traditional arts. These arts may have survived in their entirety only in the hands of those who fled China before the revolution, or who somehow managed to hide who they were and what they knew. With a few exceptions, there are not many of these people or their descendants who openly teach and give out the jewels of their arts.
But, I feel that in these times, secrecy doesn't make much sense. As has been said frequently by one great teacher and master who openly teaches his art, "The secrets guard themselves." You can teach the principles, and even the exercises and processes to master them, but only a relative few will really do the work and gain anything of substance. That's why I find it puzzling that so many are so unwilling to talk about their arts that way, other than to withhold the teachings, and mete them out in small doses for large amounts of money, to make a very good living.
willie wrote:yeah I have to agree with this, I actually was told a lot of things directly about the events that really happened. Also, I don't think that there was anyone who was teaching in the United States who did have a complete transmission. Except for maybe one or two. Remember there was no video back then so nobody knew what was right and what was wrong. So it was easy to pass off what appeared to be the real deal. There was a story that I heard about people who practiced Aikido that went to Japan in search of the Mysteries that surrounded the art. When they got there the Japanese told them that if they wanted to learn the more fighty part of Aikido, then they would have to go to a certain School. when they got to the school they were very disappointed because the teacher was a white guy named Steven Seagal. They wanted it to be a Japanese guy. Now I know this isn't talking about song but it is definitely evidence of what this current conversation has evolved into. Thanks
charles wrote:Interloper wrote:Very rapid change-ups from tanden-ho (dantian activation) and meimon-ho (mingmen activation), combined with lateral and spiraling change-ups of the kua, create vibration and oscillation at a very subtle and nuanced level.
Are you referring to inertia effects, such as the shaking seen in long pole work?
Interloper wrote:Yeah, we've taken the topic pretty far afield. I'll bring it back around by saying that this thread is symptomatic of the Babel of the internal martial arts, due to the wildly disparate levels of completeness of the systems and of the degree of transmission of skills. "Song" will thus mean so many things to different people that there will never be a consensus in a discussion forum.
I am interested in peoples understanding of Song, what does it mean?
My current understanding is that it has to do with having space within oneself, or to reside within ones own space. Meaning, that one has the space to change internally regardless of external restrictions. It remains very mysterious to me. If we say Song means to relax or release, How does relaxation effect application?
Interloper wrote:Done in rapid, small-movement change-ups, this feels like a pulse or vibration, and oscillation.
Interloper wrote:Yeah, we've taken the topic pretty far afield.
I don't practice taiji chuan
by Wang Hai Jun Fang Song – Loosen the body
[size=85]The first of these skills is fang song, sometimes abbreviated to song. Song is frequently translated as “relax.” While this is true, it does not really describe the process. The joints must relax, but as a consequence other parts of the body must work hard, particularly the legs. Loosening the joints is perhaps a better translation. The result should not be a body like a cooked bowl of noodles: rather it should be like a solid piece of rubber, strong but not stiff. The term fang has two meanings. The first is about something remaining under control, connected to both the mind and the body (i.e in this case not going limp.). The second is to put something down, away from you. The combination of these two meanings provides the understanding needed.
For most people studying taijiquan, song appears early on in their lessons. Unfortunately, most adults (and many children) are much stiffer than they realise. We do not know where we are tight, nor the degree of stiffness we generally maintain in our joints. In taijiquan, song describes the requirement of loosening the joints, relaxing the habitual stiffness from them, getting used to holding them without stiffness, then moving them without stiffness: Shoulders and hips, elbows and knees, the spine, particularly in the waist, the ankles and wrists.
When a joint is loosened, it is free to rotate or turn without hindrance or resistance. It is this ability that is required in taijiquan. The taijiquan classics talk of even the smallest pressure of a feather or a fly causing movement, like a finely balanced and oiled ball-bearing, where even the lightest touch causes it to rotate.
This is from the Yang Family:
Fang song is an approach of training. It is a strategy; it is not something tangible. Today there are many practitioners of Yang style Taijiquan, and unfortunately many have not fully comprehended the meaning of fang song, and they misinterpret its meaning. This is because song (relax or loosen) and ruan (soft) were put into the same category. Many think that song is ruan. What we consider as song is not ruan. Song requires that the joints and the muscles be intentionally letting loose, and extended. This is loosened up and extended out. Extended. It is not ruan. It is not this way nor this way. [He illustrates.] If it is this way, it will be difficult to express the jin.
willie wrote:Interloper wrote:
No one ever seems to want to talk about actual biological-mechanical aspects of internal structure and power. Maybe they think it is giving away "secrets"? These aren't secrets. If you figure out how to use these things to make "Peng," and work them until you do, then you have earned that skill.
Hi Cady. That's most likely because it's too specific. From what I have seen most of the people don't really understand what they're doing in a specific way. That's because they were taught in riddles. It is much safer to leave out specifics and talk in general terms. In that way they would not be exposing themselves as someone who does not know the answer. Because of the riddles, like the term (a woman's hair hanging down equals song) which is incorrect. This is left for the practitioner to ponder, perhaps for years. When In-fact there is nothing to ponder. It"s just a riddle spoken by riddlers with no real tangible meaning. The other riddle is a little better. (It's the snow which has accumulated on top of a tree branch). Although this is also completely incorrect and open for infinite interpretations, it does have a couple specific qualities. However, in order to figure out what those qualities actually are, the person would have to have a more specific and more correct understanding in the first place. Because of this fact the entire analogy is useless. Perhaps this is why we are talking about wavelength oscilloscopes and swing sets?
windwalker wrote:edited
trip I can see that your post is pretty much directed against me. That's fine. I don't care. I'm not going to lie just to make you happy.Trip wrote:
Plus, you’ve been having a conversation with Willie. He claims to have complete understanding of Fang Song and more.
That means you have access Willie. Why aren’t you getting clarity about meaning and usage in Taiji from him?
Or, if you do understand Fang Song usage and meaning in Taiji I beg you to post it to remove all confusion from the people who study Taiji.
After that if you still don't understand Fang Song in Taiji there's other sources.
If you needed clear instruction on Fang Song in Chen Style Taiji, there's people here who could help. I think Charles has studied with (2 or 3?) Top Chen Style teachers. I bet if asked he and others would have great suggestions of where to get good instruction for Chen Style.
I think they have a lot in common
charles wrote:windwalker wrote:edited
Thanks for your response. I read it both times you posted it, with the differences between the two. I appreciate it, but am just not sure where to go with it. I'm not sure whether we experience different things or just have very different descriptions/models of the same thing.
willie wrote:trip I can see that your post is pretty much directed against me. That's fine. I don't care. I'm not going to lie just to make you happy.
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