Song, what does it mean?

[Giles]

The thing about talking on a blog that is in English is any concept if understood should be explainable in English
The good thing about training in Malaysia is most older teachers had English as a first or second language
Many trained in Australian universities
So all concepts were easily explainable

Your experience is surely wider than mine, but in the area between KL and Johor Bahru most of the older Chinese teachers/masters whom I met in the late 1990s, in the Yue Shu Ting lineage or otherwise, spoke no English. They were certainly not academically educated. Mandarin dialects, Cantonese and Malay were spoken by the masters, and either their Chinese students or Nigel Sutton translated into English. After a while I understood and spoke just a little Chinese (lost it again since).
Singapore was different, much more English was spoken there.

Song ,fan song,sing song it's all the same
You either have it or you don't
There are no secrets just hard work,correct teaching and repiticion

Yes, exactly. Apparently no significant difference between 'song' and 'fang song'.
But this is a forum so it's still interesting to talk about things. Sometimes.

[wayne hansen]

I am of the yap Sui ting lineage
My teacher was predominantly taught by grandmaster chock Seng kam lineage but also had teaching thru the lu tong Bao lineage
Up until independence all schooling was done in English
So I would think the older teachers would have a better command of the English language
When I was last there in 85 I can't remember meeting anyone who didn't speak English

[windwalker]

From what I gather, "Song" is what we use in other internal arts when we are relaxing the conventional muscles that are more typically used to do work -- biceps, triceps, the muscles of the upper back and shoulders, plus the glutes and some of the other large lower-body muscles. Those are the ones people tense and contract to pull, to push.

I don't practice taiji chuan, but I do train in two other internal arts, and the above-mentioned muscles are always kept relaxed and supported by an internally connected structure of "lesser-known" muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia -- such as the iliopsoas, the femoral muscles/tendons/ligaments, the latissimus dorsii, the teres major and minor, trapezius, and several others. When these latter tissues are employed in very specific, intentional ways, they make it possible to relax the muscles that are commonly used for "externally" driven movement and work. Thus, to someone with their hands on the arms, shoulders and upper back of a person employing the "internal" tissues, it would feel like he was very relaxed and soft. These are some of the things that are used to hold a unified structure and to generate force in a way that is very different from conventional means.

The problem is one of level, practice and experience. All of if are too different then there's not much to talk about with out getting past proving or explaining the basic premise of ones practice. For example while I can understand what was written I would not agree with it. dosn't make it wrong or incorrect just not the same method.,


No one ever seems to want to talk about actual biological-mechanical aspects of internal structure and power. Maybe they think it is giving away "secrets"? These aren't secrets. If you figure out how to use these things to make "Peng," and work them until you do, then you have earned that skill. Elite athletes intuitively come upon some of these body usages in their pursuit of their sport. I have seen rural farming people in other countries, using "Song" and an aligned structure to make their heavy work easier and more efficient -- men, women and children, and elderly people. These components are inherent in all of us, but I suspect that generations of urban life have caused many of us to forget them. Illustrates the point, nothing is "forgotten" it has to be identified and trained for it to mean anything related to the practice of taiji according to method, level and practice..If others feel this is correct that some have forgotten it what is there to discuss.

Ask any of the rural people to drive a car and see what happens, do you feel urban life has no equals to what is a basic human experience, balance, load distribution ect....

I see many talking about driving, ie driven by or from the dantian ect...I use the word excitation
The meaning and what it deals with is different.

"A swing set is a simple example of a resonant system with which most people have practical experience. It is a form of pendulum. If the system is excited (pushed) with a period between pushes equal to the inverse of the pendulum's natural frequency, the swing will swing higher and higher, but if excited at a different frequency, it will be difficult to move. The resonance frequency of a pendulum, the only frequency at which it will vibrate, is given approximately, for small displacements, by the equation:[1]"

[willie]

so I'm sure that plenty of other folks (here) do similar things, irrespective of the style they practice. So even if they sometimes choose different metaphors or descriptions for (parts of) the process, maybe it's not significantly different from the path you've found and now champion. Maybe. As others note here, language is very tricky.

Well as you can clearly see I'm speaking a completely different language then everyone else.
This is because the material is not the same. This is the higher level understanding.
Someone had said that it's not the 70's - 80's and that the information is readily available, Then why doesn't everyone have the same material?
The understandings are different, because it has to be...

[charles]

I see many talking about driving, ie driven by or from the dantian ect...I use the word excitation
The meaning and what it deals with is different.

"A swing set is a simple example of a resonant system with which most people have practical experience. It is a form of pendulum. If the system is excited (pushed) with a period between pushes equal to the inverse of the pendulum's natural frequency, the swing will swing higher and higher, but if excited at a different frequency, it will be difficult to move. The resonance frequency of a pendulum, the only frequency at which it will vibrate, is given approximately, for small displacements, by the equation:[1]"

You seem to be implying that periodic, resonant/harmonic motion is found n Taijiquan. Is being "loose" or "relaxed" - the subject of this discussion - related to this in a specific way? Is it is your suggestion that parts of the body are vibrating/oscillating and one can "time" the frequencies/periods of these so that one causes the next one to increase in amplitude, thereby "moving" or "exciting" the next?

[windwalker]

I see many talking about driving, ie driven by or from the dantian ect...I use the word excitation
The meaning and what it deals with is different.

"A swing set is a simple example of a resonant system with which most people have practical experience. It is a form of pendulum. If the system is excited (pushed) with a period between pushes equal to the inverse of the pendulum's natural frequency, the swing will swing higher and higher, but if excited at a different frequency, it will be difficult to move. The resonance frequency of a pendulum, the only frequency at which it will vibrate, is given approximately, for small displacements, by the equation:[1]"

You seem to be implying that periodic, resonant/harmonic motion is found n Taijiquan. Is being "loose" or "relaxed" - the subject of this discussion - related to this in a specific way? With out practicing with **fan song* in mind, it is not possible to be song. One will not be able to feel or understand how a wave can pass through a body or create a wave Is it is your suggestion that parts of the body are vibrating/oscillating and one can "time" the frequencies/periods of these so that one causes the next one to increase in amplitude, thereby "moving" or "exciting" the next? I wouldn't call it a suggestion, my own practice is built on this. Something I've been working on/with for awhile researching and testing...

**In accordance with the definition that I use, understanding others have theirs', no need to repost again.

[Trick]

I see many talking about driving, ie driven by or from the dantian ect...I use the word excitation
The meaning and what it deals with is different.

"A swing set is a simple example of a resonant system with which most people have practical experience. It is a form of pendulum. If the system is excited (pushed) with a period between pushes equal to the inverse of the pendulum's natural frequency, the swing will swing higher and higher, but if excited at a different frequency, it will be difficult to move. The resonance frequency of a pendulum, the only frequency at which it will vibrate, is given approximately, for small displacements, by the equation:[1]"

You seem to be implying that periodic, resonant/harmonic motion is found n Taijiquan. Is being "loose" or "relaxed" - the subject of this discussion - related to this in a specific way? With out practicing with **fan song* in mind, it is not possible to be song. One will not be able to feel or understand how a wave can pass through a body or create a wave Is it is your suggestion that parts of the body are vibrating/oscillating and one can "time" the frequencies/periods of these so that one causes the next one to increase in amplitude, thereby "moving" or "exciting" the next? I wouldn't call it a suggestion, my own practice is built on this. Something I've been working on/with for awhile researching and testing...

**In accordance with the definition that I use, understanding others have theirs', no need to repost again.

Someone coined "Schrodinger Taiji" elsewhere on the forum with the hint to the cat in the box, probably to just point out that there is good Taiji and not so good Taiji..But Schrodingers work In physics could be of interest since it goes into the work of Waves

[Giles]

I am of the yap Sui ting lineage
My teacher was predominantly taught by grandmaster chock Seng kam lineage but also had teaching thru the lu tong Bao lineage
Up until independence all schooling was done in English
So I would think the older teachers would have a better command of the English language
When I was last there in 85 I can't remember meeting anyone who didn't speak English

Hi Wayne, you've surely been around the block longer and further than me, but that was my experience during 3 years in the Lu Tong Bao sub-line 20 years ago - I'm not making this up!
Anyway, it's getting off-topic so back to main programme...

[charles]

my own practice is built on this.

Interesting. Thanks for your response.

[Interloper]

Very rapid change-ups from tanden-ho (dantian activation) and meimon-ho (mingmen activation), combined with lateral and spiraling change-ups of the kua, create vibration and oscillation at a very subtle and nuanced level.

[willie]

No one ever seems to want to talk about actual biological-mechanical aspects of internal structure and power. Maybe they think it is giving away "secrets"? These aren't secrets. If you figure out how to use these things to make "Peng," and work them until you do, then you have earned that skill.

Hi Cady. That's most likely because it's too specific. From what I have seen most of the people don't really understand what they're doing in a specific way. That's because they were taught in riddles. It is much safer to leave out specifics and talk in general terms. In that way they would not be exposing themselves as someone who does not know the answer. Because of the riddles, like the term (a woman's hair hanging down equals song) which is incorrect. This is left for the practitioner to ponder, perhaps for years. When In-fact there is nothing to ponder. It"s just a riddle spoken by riddlers with no real tangible meaning. The other riddle is a little better. (It's the snow which has accumulated on top of a tree branch). Although this is also completely incorrect and open for infinite interpretations, it does have a couple specific qualities. However, in order to figure out what those qualities actually are, the person would have to have a more specific and more correct understanding in the first place. Because of this fact the entire analogy is useless. Perhaps this is why we are talking about wavelength oscilloscopes and swing sets?

[Interloper]

So much of internal martial art is based on feel, not visuals, or even oral instruction. It's easy to get lost in the weeds when the verbal instruction is cryptic.

[Interloper]

From what I have seen most of the people don't really understand what they're doing in a specific way. That's because they were taught in riddles. It is much safer to leave out specifics and talk in general terms. In that way they would not be exposing themselves as someone who does not know the answer. Because of the riddles, like the term (a woman's hair hanging down equals song) which is incorrect. This is left for the practitioner to ponder, perhaps for years. When In-fact there is nothing to ponder. It"s just a riddle spoken by riddlers with no real tangible meaning. The other riddle is a little better. (It's the snow which has accumulated on top of a tree branch). Although this is also completely incorrect and open for infinite interpretations, it does have a couple specific qualities. However, in order to figure out what those qualities actually are, the person would have to have a more specific and more correct understanding in the first place. Because of this fact the entire analogy is useless. Perhaps this is why we are talking about wavelength oscilloscopes and swing sets?

Hi willie,
I agree -- most of these internal arts seem to lack a clear teaching language, and instead use metaphors, songs, and riddles. Probably in part, so that deep concepts could be kept secret, and also, in part, because the teachers themselves did not really understand the specific bio-mechanics involved. They relied on feel and intuitive descriptions. The students who really "got the goods" did so because their teachers gave them direct transmission, hands-on, and walked them through each aspect of movement and training, so the student could gain the "feel" and intuitive understanding. In the Japanese arts, this is called "jikiden." I don't know the equivalent term in Chinese.

Another part of this, I suspect, is so many people, back in the day, were illiterate that the best way their teachers could impart learning was in the form of poems and songs that could be orally transmitted and memorized. Combined with jikiden, a student was well equipped to practice and learn his art physically and have a mnemonic system that served as a memory-jogger if he needed to recall a point or lesson, while training on his own. The songs and poems alone would never be enough for a student to teach himself an art; they are too esoteric. But, coupled with hands-on practice with the teacher, they would be a useful learning tool.

The problem is, now there is too much generic training, without jikiden, so all the student has is visuals and a set of quizzical "koan" to try and make sense of. To my view, this is not a complete teaching method. Perhaps it is intentional in some cases, and circumstantial in others where the teacher himself lacks the complete skill set or understanding.

[slowEdie]

Song = Relax a lady's long hair hanging, a pine tree drooping, laden with snow, putting something down beside oneself

In the context of TJQ, sung cannot be achieved without the necessary leg strength,
the upper body cannot be soft enough.

so eat bitter.


Aw lovin it really

[charles]

Very rapid change-ups from tanden-ho (dantian activation) and meimon-ho (mingmen activation), combined with lateral and spiraling change-ups of the kua, create vibration and oscillation at a very subtle and nuanced level.

Are you referring to inertia effects, such as the shaking seen in long pole work?