Song, what does it mean?

[cloudz]

Hi Cloudz.
As you know Song means relax right?

Hey Willz,
Does it, are you sure ?

I relax in front of my TV, and it's very very different to the taiji practices I try to keep up with. Of course meaning and translation are a different thing, and I'm not just trying to be clever with you.. I think. Relax is one way to translate. But my experience with second language, and I do have one, that it is often the case that you only get a partial meaning, or picture of the original and authentic one. Maybe we can do something better, or come up with a better English word(s) or phrases than "relax".

Stay tuned my amigo.

[willie]

Hi Cloudz.
As you know Song means relax right?

Hey Willz,
Does it, are you sure ?

I relax in front of my TV

Stay tuned my amigo.

ah so you do get it, it has too many meanings.

If I remember correctly you had stated that it's hard to talk about one thing without including another. that's correct.

If you just relax "Peng is lost"
So the state of Song must address this issue or there will be no taichi.

[Bao]

Fangsong is just the modern Word for relax. This is what you say in speech when you tell someone to relax, fangsong. It's the same as song, there's no difference. It just means relax.

Hi Bao, Not really. It's a bit more then that.

No, there's not anything more to it. There is nothing in the word that suggest something that has to do with the legs or opening of the joints. It means to relax or loosen up. Period.

Here you have examples of how it's used:
http://dictionary.pinpinchinese.com/definitions/s/放松-fangsong

Only "song" without "fang" is mostly used in idioms or older ways to express relaxation and if it's used today, it is mostly used to express "relief", as in "I'm so relieved that I passed that exam."

当我们听说他们平安无事时都松了一口气
We all heared a sigh of relief when we heard that they were safe.

So "fangsong" is just the correct way in modern Chinese to say "relax". There's not much else to this word. If you speak about what song or fang song means in Tai Chi, then you shouldn't distinguish them. They mean the same. If your speak abut the legs and the joints or not, relax in tai chi is still to relax.

[cloudz]

Thanks Bao, that confirms the upshot of pretty much what a kind friend shared with me.

[Bao]

Thanks Bao, that confirms the upshot of pretty much what a kind friend shared with me.

You’re welcome.

[Giles]

So "fangsong" is just the correct way in modern Chinese to say "relax". There's not much else to this word. If you speak about what song or fang song means in Tai Chi, then you shouldn't distinguish them. They mean the same. If your speak abut the legs and the joints or not, relax in tai chi is still to relax.

Yeah. Many moons ago when I was training in Malaysia (as a non-Chinese speaker), my main teacher of the time said "fang song" a lot. When I asked Nigel Sutton what the teacher (who was also one of his teachers) meant by that, he told me "Just means 'use the quality of song' or suchlike." And Nigel speaks fluent Mandarin and was/is fully integrated in both the general Chinese and specific Tai Chi communities over there, so he should know. (Hi, Nigel, if you happen to read this).
Naturally, "fang song" in the Tai Chi context involves opening the joints, no doubt about that. But that's something else.

[willie]

So "fangsong" is just the correct way in modern Chinese to say "relax". There's not much else to this word. If you speak about what song or fang song means in Tai Chi, then you shouldn't distinguish them. They mean the same. If your speak abut the legs and the joints or not, relax in tai chi is still to relax.

Well I tried. I quoted the translation directly from whj himself. To me his translation makes perfect sense. All of the requirements that are necessary to use Tai Chi in a high-level fashion must be met. So although song could be understood as its own thing, it must also work in harmony with the rest of the requirements. The word relax does not fill this requirement. There is so many things going on in Tai Chi that if any one of the requirements are not met the entire thing is lost. An example would be a coiled spring. If I had relaxed the metal alloy of that spring, that would mean that I would send it to a heat treating plant and have the spring annealed. Now that the spring is in its relaxed state, it would have no springiness to it. If it had no springiness to it, then it would not have any Peng. that is just one example of how Fang song interacts with Peng. There is a lot more to it than even that.

[cloudz]

Ok here's some cool stuff I wanted to share withy you guys.

So from the text itself; the headline: Qi must be regulated and even, Jin(7) Must be Slack(8) yet Taught. It then goes on to talk about the first part of that regards the Qi, in this case regards the breath and breathing. I'll skip that, it then goes on to expand on the second part "jin must be slack, yet taught".

At first the jin must be slack, which can be followed by tightness. Only with slackness as the pivot can tightness reach its fullness.Therefore, the slack gives rise to the taught, the taut cannot become slack(11).

Then there's some explanation of the annotations.


7. Jin means strength/power

8. Song implies slack yet resiliant, like a slackened rope that can tighten again, or hair that has been bound up that has been let down. the bottom radical is pine. In Chinese martial arts a favourite example of Song is a pine tree with snow on its branches. The branches hang under the weight of the snow but retain an inner resiliance. When the snow falls or is brushed off the branches spring back.

I didn't copy out (11), but basically it talks about the condition of a whip; how the whip is slack but contains the potential for tautness, I beleive this points out that it doesn't work the other way round - illustrating what is said in the text: the taught cannot become slack

My takeway regards our use of the word "relax" is that it's probably better substituted for slack.. But it still needs that yang to this yin which is where the phrase "slack yet resiliant" seems to capture it very well.

And to those of you who have brought peng into this; what for, what is the need. Song has it covered as far as I can tell, and Peng is something else you do with "jin"(IMO).. But yes, this is where I repeat myself about peng. I put all that in the Peng thread and that's where I'll leave it.

[willie]

Ok here's some cool stuff I wanted to share withy you guys.

So from the text itself; the headline: Qi must be regulated and even, Jin(7) Must be Slack(8) yet Taught. It then goes on to talk about the first part of that regards the Qi, in this case regards the breath and breathing. I'll skip that, it then goes on to expand on the second part "jin must be slack, yet taught".

At first the jin must be slack, which can be followed by tightness. Only with slackness as the pivot can tightness reach its fullness.Therefore, the slack gives rise to the taught, the taut cannot become slack(11).

Then there's some explanation of the annotations.


7. Jin means strength/power

8. Song implies slack yet resiliant, like a slackened rope that can tighten again, or hair that has been bound up that has been let down. the bottom radical is pine. In Chinese martial arts a favourite example of Song is a pine tree with snow on its branches. The branches hang under the weight of the snow but retain an inner resiliance. When the snow falls or is brushed off the branches spring back.

I didn't copy out (11), but basically it talks about the condition of a whip; how the whip is slack but contains the potential for tautness, I beleive this points out that it doesn't work the other way round - explaining what is said in the text: the taught cannot become slack

My takeway regards our use of the word "relax" is that it's probably better substituted for slack.. But it still needs that yang to this yin which is where the phrase "slack yet resiliant" seems to capture it very well.

And to those of you who have brought peng into this; what for, what is the need. Song has it covered as far as I can tell, and Peng is something else you do with "jin"(IMO).. But yes, this is where I repeat myself about peng. I put all that in the Peng thread and that's where I'll leave it.

hi clouds. I understand the entire text that you just wrote. Why did you leave out the part about qi. Qi has something to do with it as well. Because the word song "as relax" directly relates to qi my opinion. If you are relaxed than the qi will sink. If you are excited, fire, kidneys then the qi will rise to the Head.

[Giles]

A quick shot at a "unified field theory" of 'song', drawing on various contributions in the thread. This is shooting from the hip, almost stream of consciousness, so don't expect too much.

Joints opened, the right body tissues ('fascia', if you will), especially in the torso, stretching under external pressure and gravity. Body aligned with gravity through/around the vertical axis. What's the precondition for opening the joints in this way? Erecting the skeleton through the atlas joint to the top of the skull (which is muscular 'work') and simultaneously letting go of all unnecessary/parasitic tension in the muscles. This will open most joints automatically, if this process is ongoing/self-renewing (metaphor: "Like a marionette hanging from a single string"). Gravity force and external forces will then tend to distribute evenly throughout the body ("Like the elements of a pine tree, different but mutually attuned"). It's NOT the same as just going noodle-limp/floppy/tofu-body/'ruan', which will cause the skeleton to sag out of alignment and create insufficent tension in some parts of the body alongside excessive tension (blockages) in other parts. Body then feels "strong" to the touch in a non-rigid way, yielding to some extent but the more you push, the more substantial/resistance/grounded it feels, without ever become rigid or brittle. (metaphor: "feels like rubber/like a car tyre"). Unless the tai chi-guy chooses to let the contact point more empty, meaning that the person exerting the force is not allowed to reach the point of 'solidification'. But it's still there in the background. The subjective feeling you get when raising the head-top and letting go to open the joints is one of extreme relaxation. In a way. But if you do it right, then there's one part of the body that immediately starts working much harder than before, so much so that it can be really tough at the beginning: the quads! (Willie, I salute thee). They begin taking over a specific kind of work that was formerly done (wrongly) by the lower back, the shoulders etc. And in the course of time they grow much stronger.
This body organisation must be constantly self-renewing (refresh, refresh, refresh) in order to continue accommodation to changes in the forces acting on the body. You don't try to respond specifically to every little change (that way lies ruin), you keep raising the skeleton, opening the joints, loosening the hips, and then the specific adjustments happen by themselves, very fast. The hardest thing is to keep 'letting go' without sagging, losing your skeletal alignment, becoming weak.
Then you use the same body organisation for offence as well, as the body state for not only meeting an attack but also or simultaneously striking, throwing, projecting, locking. Without becoming over-tense or rigid, without losing connection. Then your attacking hands, indeed your whole body, feel very 'heavy' to the opponent even while subjectively you feel quite relaxed. Because, among other things, you are in harmony with gravity.

Now I'll go and lie down for a while.

[willie]

A quick shot at a "unified field theory" of 'song', drawing on various contributions in the thread. This is shooting from the hip, almost stream of consciousness, so don't expect too much.

Joints opened, the right body tissues ('fascia', if you will), especially in the torso, stretching under external pressure and gravity. Body aligned with gravity through/around the vertical axis. What's the precondition for opening the joints in this way? Erecting the skeleton through the atlas joint to the top of the skull (which is muscular 'work') and simultaneously letting go of all unnecessary/parasitic tension in the muscles. This will open most joints automatically, if this process is ongoing/self-renewing (metaphor: "Like a marionette hanging from a single string"). Graving force and external forces will then tend to distribute evenly throughout the body ("Like the elements of a pine tree, different but mutually attuned"). It's NOT the same as just going noodle-limp/floppy/tofu-body/'ruan', which will cause the skeleton to sag out of alignment and create insufficent tension in some parts of the body alongside excessive tension (blockages) in other parts. Body then feels "strong" to the touch in a non-rigid way, yielding to some extent but the more you push, the more substantial/resistance/grounded it feels, without ever become rigid or brittle. (metaphor: "feels like rubber/like a car tyre"). Unless the tai chi-guy chooses to let the contact point more empty, meaning that the person exerting the force is not allowed to reach the point of 'solidification'. But it's still there in the background. The subjective feeling you get when raising the head-top and letting go to open the joints is one of extreme relaxation. In a way. But if you do it right, then there's one part of the body that immediately starts working much harder than before, so much so that it can be really tough at the beginning: the quads! (Willie, I salute thee). They begin taking over a specific kind of work that was formerly done (wrongly) by the lower back, the shoulders etc. And in the course of time they grow much stronger.
This body organisation must be constantly self-renewing (refresh, refresh, refresh) in order to continue accommodation to changes in the forces acting on the body. You don't try to respond specifically to every little change (that way lies ruin), you keep raising the skeleton, opening the joints, loosening the hips, and then the specific adjustments happen by themselves, very fast. The hardest thing is to keep 'letting go' without sagging, losing your skeletal alignment, becoming weak.
Then you use the same body organisation for offence as well, as the body state for not only meeting an attack but also or simultaneously striking, throwing, projecting, locking. Without becoming over-tense or rigid, without losing connection. Then your attacking hands, indeed your whole body, feel very 'heavy' to the opponent even while subjectively you feel quite relaxed. Because, among other things, you are in harmony with gravity.

Now I'll go and lie down for a while.

That's it! LOL, well almost. "Song kua" is the term for properly isolating the load in the quads which releases the hips to move effortlessly as if on oil.

[Trick]

Fangsong is just the modern Word for relax. This is what you say in speech when you tell someone to relax, fangsong. It's the same as song, there's no difference. It just means relax.

Hi Bao, Not really. It's a bit more then that.

Hmm, my experience is that Fangsong is what the teacher tell to an obvious tensed up student, so just basic relax, which of course must be the first step before one can begin the deeper concept of Song

[Giles]

That's it! LOL, well almost. "Song kua" is the term for properly isolating the load in the quads which releases the hips to move effortlessly as if on oil.

Of course, the hips too. I left that bit out but the "oiled mobility" of the hips is crucial too. I've been using that oil image for a long time. And you know what? As soon as the neck area becomes tense or begins to collapse (chin moving forward, a kink in the uppermost vertebrae) then the hips become 'clogged' again. Which is one reason for keeping the 'headtop suspended'.

Actually, Willie, everything I threw into the text isn't only a summary of thread contributions, it's also precisely (part of) what I practice and teach, i.e. all drawn from my own experience and training. My actual level of ability is moot, of course, but these principles and connections are standard for me. And I'm certainly no-one special or outstandingly skilled, so I'm sure that plenty of other folks (here) do similar things, irrespective of the style they practice. So even if they sometimes choose different metaphors or descriptions for (parts of) the process, maybe it's not significantly different from the path you've found and now champion. Maybe. As others note here, language is very tricky.

[wayne hansen]

The thing about talking on a blog that is in English is any concept if understood should be explainable in English
The good thing about training in Malaysia is most older teachers had English as a first or second language
Many trained in Australian universities
So all concepts were easily explainable
If you need to go to Chinese you don't really understand what you are saying
Song ,fan song,sing song it's all the same
You either have it or you don't
There are no secrets just hard work,correct teaching and repiticion

[Interloper]

From what I gather, "Song" is what we use in other internal arts when we are relaxing the conventional muscles that are more typically used to do work -- biceps, triceps, the muscles of the upper back and shoulders, plus the glutes and some of the other large lower-body muscles. Those are the ones people tense and contract to pull, to push.

I don't practice taiji chuan, but I do train in two other internal arts, and the above-mentioned muscles are always kept relaxed and supported by an internally connected structure of "lesser-known" muscles, tendons, ligaments and fascia -- such as the iliopsoas, the femoral muscles/tendons/ligaments, the latissimus dorsii, the teres major and minor, trapezius, and several others. When these latter tissues are employed in very specific, intentional ways, they make it possible to relax the muscles that are commonly used for "externally" driven movement and work. Thus, to someone with their hands on the arms, shoulders and upper back of a person employing the "internal" tissues, it would feel like he was very relaxed and soft. These are some of the things that are used to hold a unified structure and to generate force in a way that is very different from conventional means.

No one ever seems to want to talk about actual biological-mechanical aspects of internal structure and power. Maybe they think it is giving away "secrets"? These aren't secrets. If you figure out how to use these things to make "Peng," and work them until you do, then you have earned that skill. Elite athletes intuitively come upon some of these body usages in their pursuit of their sport. I have seen rural farming people in other countries, using "Song" and an aligned structure to make their heavy work easier and more efficient -- men, women and children, and elderly people. These components are inherent in all of us, but I suspect that generations of urban life have caused many of us to forget them.