Song, what does it mean?

[charles]

...But it’s not Just a skill of relaxation. When you practice A very deep relaxation, you must use other, deeper muscles than you are used to...You really need to go beyond softness and relaxation. Instead you need to understand how to be really limp. Then you can understand how the body itself wants to help you to keep up the structure and prevents it from relaxation. This is peng. Peng as expansion is built from relaxation, not by trying to keep the body al dente.

It’s not an easy task to achieve and I won’t pretend it is. But this is why people have a hard time to understand that relaxation is a skill. If you try to balance softness with 30% hardness or structure, you will never learn to become soft enough to realize what softness can do and why Tai Chi masters regard it as a skil.

And I do know that very few here agree with me.

I whole-heartedly agree.

As an aside, a "simple" exercise I've done with beginners is to have a beginner let me support the full weight of one of their arms in my hands. If I suddenly stop supporting their arm, it should drop like dead weight. My experience is that many people, more men than women, can't do this. They can't get their arm to be absolutely limp and supported. When I stop supporting their arm, it doesn't drop, but hangs in mid-air where I was supporting it. I've found that many non-beginners can't do this either. It isn't a high-level skill: it is entry level.

The inability to really "let go", and the excess tension that goes with it, prevents the body from "threading" itself (e.g. the middle from driving the extremities): silk reeling, for example, becomes choreography. "Jin" won't reach the extremities, but gets lost in the transmission.

[marvin8]

It seems to me that all athletes, and really every human person, is generally relaxed when not under any pressure besides gravity

In other arts one is taught to relax, too. I do not know if there is a biomechanical difference (e.g., open joints, etc.).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7muOK5RXF5Y

@ 1:38 "First is you got to be relaxed. . . ."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bVUR9xN8OI

...But it’s not Just a skill of relaxation. When you practice A very deep relaxation, you must use other, deeper muscles than you are used to...You really need to go beyond softness and relaxation. Instead you need to understand how to be really limp. Then you can understand how the body itself wants to help you to keep up the structure and prevents it from relaxation. This is peng. Peng as expansion is built from relaxation, not by trying to keep the body al dente.

It’s not an easy task to achieve and I won’t pretend it is. But this is why people have a hard time to understand that relaxation is a skill. If you try to balance softness with 30% hardness or structure, you will never learn to become soft enough to realize what softness can do and why Tai Chi masters regard it as a skil.

And I do know that very few here agree with me.

I whole-heartedly agree. . . .

The inability to really "let go", and the excess tension that goes with it, prevents the body from "threading" itself (e.g. the middle from driving the extremities): silk reeling, for example, becomes choreography. "Jin" won't reach the extremities, but gets lost in the transmission.

How does tai chi relaxation differ (e.g., biomechanics, effects, etc.) from relaxation in the videos that were posted?

[Bao]

I whole-heartedly agree.

As an aside, a "simple" exercise I've done with beginners is to have a beginner let me support the full weight of one of their arms in my hands. If I suddenly stop supporting their arm, it should drop like dead weight. My experience is that many people, more men than women, can't do this. They can't get their arm to be absolutely limp and supported. When I stop supporting their arm, it doesn't drop, but hangs in mid-air where I was supporting it. I've found that many non-beginners can't do this either. It isn't a high-level skill: it is entry level.

The inability to really "let go", and the excess tension that goes with it, prevents the body from "threading" itself (e.g. the middle from driving the extremities): silk reeling, for example, becomes choreography. "Jin" won't reach the extremities, but gets lost in the transmission.

Good example.

How does tai chi relaxation differ (e.g., biomechanics, effects, etc.) from relaxation in the videos that were posted?

Those videos? It's a good start I guess, but the relaxedness shown here is rather shallow. Far away from a deeper relaxation skill. They could benefit from Tai Chi practice. Some boxers though really have "it". Some of the pro boxers can really drop all of their weight into the target while issuing power from the deep muscles of their core. I would imagine that some of them have some special practice to develop these skills as well, but I would also imagine that they would not so easily give away what they have found.

[klonk]

Some of the pro boxers can really drop all of their weight into the target while issuing power from the deep muscles of their core. I would imagine that some of them have some special practice to develop these skills as well, but I would also imagine that they would not so easily give away what they have found.

There is an undercurrent of conversation in the boxing world about yoga.

[willie]

You can song someone to death
Rear naked choke is one example but there are many more
If you can't see that you are still in the world of base mechanics

I can't even believe that you would use this example to try to describe song. I'm very disappointed in you Wayne.

[willie]

Those videos? It's a good start I guess.

Nope. it has nothing to do with the topic at all

[willie]

Relaxed like a lady's long hair hanging down

Nope.

[willie]

This is a very clear video of someone who truly has acquired fang song.
To understand song's meaning /application, you have to understand fang song.

[Trick]

Is it just a quality that one builds up gradually through practice, like strength and flexibility? If so, why is it spoken of as something that you can do intentionally? It seems to me that martial art is either an exercise or not. Meaning, when you do a movement over and over as an exercise, you become stronger and more flexible based on the exercise performed. This is not at all unique to Taiji. So what makes Song special?

Yes, it’s a skill. But it’s not Just a skill of relaxation. When you practice A very deep relaxation, you must use other, deeper muscles than you are used to. So relaxation in Tai Chi is also a strength practice. You strengthen deeper core muscles as you start to use them more extensively. This is why people tend to shake or “float” when they start to learn form. They start to learn to relax, but they have no stability. They must learn to build roots. Rooting is about using and build up strength in other deeper muscles just as much it’s about relaxing.


You must first learn to stay up structured and yet relax much more than just anybody can relax. If you stand in wuji, the natural “will” of the body and it’s muscles is to raise and become longer. “Holding up the head like suspended above” is nothing you force or even do by a method or technique. If you really relax the whole body deeply, the body will take care about this itself. The neck will stretch and feel tall if you just let the body work by itself.

So song is not really about keeping al dente to not become a limp wet noodle. You really need to go beyond softness and relaxation. Instead you need to understand how to be really limp. Then you can understand how the body itself wants to help you to keep up the structure and prevents it from relaxation. This is peng. Peng as expansion is built from relaxation, not by trying to keep the body al dente.

It’s not an easy task to achieve and I won’t pretend it is. But this is why people have a hard time to understand that relaxation is a skill. If you try to balance softness with 30% hardness or structure, you will never learn to become soft enough to realize what softness can do and why Tai Chi masters regard it as a skil.

I wrote a post about this recently, “Soft First, Al Dente Later”. https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... chieve-it/

And I do know that very few here agree with me.

Yes here are some very good explaination, mixed with Charles insights "rojcewicz" should have gotten his answers and now the hard work begins

[willie]

Is it just a quality that one builds up gradually through practice, like strength and flexibility? If so, why is it spoken of as something that you can do intentionally? It seems to me that martial art is either an exercise or not. Meaning, when you do a movement over and over as an exercise, you become stronger and more flexible based on the exercise performed. This is not at all unique to Taiji. So what makes Song special?

Yes, it’s a skill. But it’s not Just a skill of relaxation. When you practice A very deep relaxation, you must use other, deeper muscles than you are used to. So relaxation in Tai Chi is also a strength practice. You strengthen deeper core muscles as you start to use them more extensively. This is why people tend to shake or “float” when they start to learn form. They start to learn to relax, but they have no stability. They must learn to build roots. Rooting is about using and build up strength in other deeper muscles just as much it’s about relaxing.


You must first learn to stay up structured and yet relax much more than just anybody can relax. If you stand in wuji, the natural “will” of the body and it’s muscles is to raise and become longer. “Holding up the head like suspended above” is nothing you force or even do by a method or technique. If you really relax the whole body deeply, the body will take care about this itself. The neck will stretch and feel tall if you just let the body work by itself.

So song is not really about keeping al dente to not become a limp wet noodle. You really need to go beyond softness and relaxation. Instead you need to understand how to be really limp. Then you can understand how the body itself wants to help you to keep up the structure and prevents it from relaxation. This is peng. Peng as expansion is built from relaxation, not by trying to keep the body al dente.

It’s not an easy task to achieve and I won’t pretend it is. But this is why people have a hard time to understand that relaxation is a skill. If you try to balance softness with 30% hardness or structure, you will never learn to become soft enough to realize what softness can do and why Tai Chi masters regard it as a skil.

I wrote a post about this recently, “Soft First, Al Dente Later”. https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... chieve-it/

And I do know that very few here agree with me.

Yes here are some very good explaination, mixed with Charles insights "rojcewicz" should have gotten his answers and now the hard work begins

Not likely, there is too much information here that is open for incorrect interpretation. Acquiring Fang song is a very specific thing.
it does not really have to do with the bulk of information listed in this thread at all. It has to do with opening up the joints and keeping them open under load. Remember in the classics the story about a fly setting taichi in motion? That is because of fang song in the joints. It is a method of suspending the joint so that the ball on the end of the bones revolves effortlessly with no drag. If you observed the video that I had posted above, you will see how effortlessly he is moving like a well oiled machine. That's because he has shifted the load from closing the joints to instead suspending the joint by placing the load directly on his quads. Therefore weightlifting or bodybuilding to enhance the quads of the legs will make your Tai Chi Superior and help you to create the condition of fang song

[Bao]

Yes here are some very good explaination, mixed with Charles insights "rojcewicz" should have gotten his answers and now the hard work begins

Thanks. And I do agree, Charles have good insights and articulate himself well and very clearly. Better than me.

there is too much information here that is open for incorrect interpretation.

There's some truth to this, for sure. You need your own experience to understand and then you need your own language to explain when you experience to yourself.

Acquiring Fang song is a very specific thing.
...It has to do with opening up the joints and keeping them open under load.
...That is because of fang song in the joints. It is a method of suspending the joint so that the ball on the end of the bones revolves effortlessly with no drag.

Fangsong, or just song, is IMO something that is all over the body, not just something that includes the joints. Though I agree that opening the joints is a very important aspect of the practice (which is something included in what I wrote, though not expressed this literary). Even if you specifically mean that song equals opening the joints, you need to understand whole body relaxation to be able to really open and control the opening and closing of the joints. If you don't have control over your muscles, you don't control the joints. Opening the joints starts with being able to relax.

Therefore weightlifting or bodybuilding to enhance the quads of the legs will make your Tai Chi Superior and help you to create the condition of fang song

Interesting point... To a certain point, strength is important for relaxation. If certain muscles are weak, other muscles or parts of the body needs to compensate for that weakness. Leg strength is also very important for the rest of the body to be able to maintain balance and relaxation under pressure.
...Though I am not sure that cosmetic bodybuilding is the correct answer for building the correct type of strength... But I have never done that type of building big muscle kind of practice, so that's my ignorant guess only...

[willie]

there is too much information here that is open for incorrect interpretation.

There's some truth to this, for sure. You need your own experience to understand and then you need your own language to explain when you experience to yourself.




Fangsong, or just song, is IMO something that is all over the body, not just something that includes the joints. Though I agree that opening the joints is a very important aspect of the practice (which is something included in what I wrote, though not expressed this literary). Even if you specifically mean that song equals opening the joints, you need to understand whole body relaxation to be able to really open and control the opening and closing of the joints. If you don't have control over your muscles, you don't control the joints. Opening the joints starts with being able to relax.



Interesting point... To a certain point, strength is important for relaxation. If certain muscles are weak, other muscles or parts of the body needs to compensate for that weakness. Leg strength is also very important for the rest of the body to be able to maintain balance and relaxation under pressure.
...Though I am not sure that cosmetic bodybuilding is the correct answer for building the correct type of strength... But I have never done that type of building big muscle kind of practice, so that's my ignorant guess only...

Weightlifting and bodybuilding will definitely help to acquire the strength in the quads needed to suspend the joints under load but it is actually the mind that controls the cantilever anyways. I actually only put that in there as an example of proof that bodybuilding or weight lifting does not hinder progress in taichi. I understand your writing and it's not that it is incorrect it is just incomplete where somebody can easily misinterpret what you're saying. Fang song is not to just let go. Fang song is to relax and put something down along side of yourself. This means that you are going to use those relaxed joints through cantilever to move the load away from you safely.

[Bao]

I understand your writing and it's not that it is incorrect it is just incomplete where somebody can easily misinterpret what you're saying. Fang song is not to just let go. Fang song is to relax and put something down along side of yourself. This means that you are going to use those relaxed joints through cantilever to move the load away from you safely.

You express yourself very well and I do appreciate your description, as well as your opinion and your POV. Thank you for discussing and adding value to it.

[cloudz]

I am interested in peoples understanding of Song, what does it mean?

It can become quite a deep subject and can be viewed (discussed) from more than one angle. You could try to talk about it from the experiential first person feeling. I think though to begin it can be simpler. Have you ever done posture testing, it's a good place to start, it's the easy place to start. I think to answer this question we can try to pose a question: what should it or would it feel like to push on a tai chi practioners body while they hold a form posture, having acheived some reasonable degree of song jin? Would that answer the question of what song means? Does it mean the state or quality acheived by the body ? Well, I think that's at least one way to look at it. From there it becomes about maintaining that condition under various pressures and performing various 'tasks'.

So what is it one will feel, or what are the qualities displayed ? The central terms I'm mostly waiting to hear that I beleive answer that have not been mentioned once so far, which isn't that surprising given some of my views about peng. Some of the things talked about song I think can be discussed as training guides, imagery; things that can get you there, specifics that produce the right conditions and effects in the body. It is true that much can be said of eliminating unwanted and unecessary tension. If we have structure with connection, which we do then the "tension" in the system has to find it's own 'goldilocks' setting.

It becomes all too easy past a certain point to start to conflate tai chi skills with eachother as they naturally blend and congregate together. At some point for example try to seperate song jin and ting jin. It's hard as they become interconnected in my opinion. I know people love to for example insist ting jin means listening to force - making the strict implication that it's listening to the opponents or others force. But listening and sensitivity can become and start to mean more. I mean think about it, if you can't listen and feel yourself and around you to a high degree what good is your skill to listen to and sense another. One can't come without the other. And then surely that becomes a skill unto itself; sensitivity in the general sense. making it specific or not is neither here nor there. But that's taking things too far into another topic. Hopefully one can grasp how the process of "song" will involve listening and sensitivity to ones self/ body. If I was put on the spot I would just say "song" is a gradual process of softening by eliminating unwanted tensions in a connected structure. People will often bring in the ideas of disconnecting and the abilities and advantages of being able to use that - going completely limp or whatever from a certain joint etc. I think that's important (as a skill) in its own right to talk about (explore/ practice), though in my opinion it is not the condition of "song".

Just food for thought anyway.

[charles]

This is a very clear video of someone who truly has acquired fang song.

Here is a randomly-selected representative demonstration of the 42 international form. Is this a clear video of someone who truly has acquired fang song?



How about this one?



How can you tell by watching? What do you look for that gives an indication of their being "song" or not? [Hint: being slow and/or smooth/flowing don't necessarily equate to being song.]