Song, what does it mean?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:02 am

windwalker wrote:
willie wrote:That's not quite true windwalker because I posted a direct translation from GMWHJ.


I did mentioned that he means nothing to me, don't know him or of him. He may be a good teacher
he is someones grandmaster not mine or anyone that I know.

If you really wanted to find the meaning you might use a source like a dictionary and look up
the characters current meaning, and their old or original meanings and start from there.

Windwalker I don't need to go to a online dictionary to try to figure out the meaning. Why would I even want too? That's why I pay the money. I don't want my own interpretation if it differs from the lineage holders. And I find your post outrageously argumentative, because you're the one who said that there was no one's translation who was a native speaker. And my grand teacher is. So are you claiming that his opinion doesn't matter?
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby Bao on Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:03 am

charles wrote: For example, putting one's hands on a teacher's body as he or she demonstrates can be very effective communication.


Exactly. The first hand experience with a good teacher, touching hands with a good teacher, feel how he moves, his timing etc. is IMO far more important than intellectual explanations. But the "feeling" will easily be forgotten if you don't meet with a teacher on several occasions, preferably often and continuously. It's a pity that people who goes to seminar often do not get to feel the teachers first hand and those who pays for private hours and "buys techniques" don't get to feel a teacher in more varied situations. It's the touch that transmits the skills. IMO.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby windwalker on Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:29 am

willie wrote:Windwalker I don't need to go to a online dictionary to try to figure out the meaning. Why would I even want too? That's why I pay the money. I don't want my own interpretation if it differs from the lineage holders. And I find your post outrageously argumentative, because you're the one who said that there was no one's translation who was a native speaker. And my grand teacher is. So are you claiming that his opinion doesn't matter?


Not to me, while I can respect it and understand that some might feel it does as obvisioly it does to you. One can either agree with it, or not...


If you read my post again what I mentioned is that a native speaker might be able to give and understand the root word how it came to be and what has changed with out giving a meaning to it.

Bao, says it means to relax which is how most modern Chinese might view and use it. This doesn't get to the original meaning as defined by the characters used to form it.

" Chinese does not have an alphabet but uses a **logographic system (Hanzi) for its written language. In logographic systems symbols represent the words themselves - words are not made up of various letters as in alphabetic systems. Because of this fundamental difference, Chinese learners may have great difficulty reading English texts and spelling words correctly."

The OP
I am interested in peoples understanding of Song, what does it mean?
It might have been good to start with the meaning of the character and to understand its org. meaning and how its changed.

** None of these systems is purely logographic. This can be illustrated with Chinese. Not all Chinese characters represent morphemes: some morphemes are composed of more than one character. For example, the Chinese word for spider, 蜘蛛 zhīzhū, was created by fusing the rebus 知朱 zhīzhū (literally 'know cinnabar') with the "bug" determinative 虫. Neither *蜘 zhī nor *蛛 zhū can be used separately (except to stand in for 蜘蛛 in poetry).

In Archaic Chinese, one can find the reverse: a single character representing more than one morpheme. An example is Archaic Chinese 王 hjwangs, a combination of a morpheme hjwang meaning king (coincidentally also written 王) and a suffix pronounced /s/. (The suffix is preserved in the modern falling tone.) In modern Mandarin, bimorphemic syllables are always written with two characters, for example 花儿 huār 'flower [diminutive]'.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:50 am

windwalker wrote:
Its still not your's its his.

a native speaker might be able to give and understand the root word

Windwalker again you are wrong.
A direct understanding means exactly that. The meaning that my grand teacher has stated is the exact same meaning and functionality as the one that I understand. That's why I intentionally got as close to the top guys in the world as I could.

Then on the other part of your statement. My grand teacher is a native speaker and the quote that I posted is Fang songs meaning in Tai Chi.
The Grandmaster is not asking others what the meaning is, instead he is offering his Advanced understanding of the term when it is used in the context of skill necessary for developing high-level Tai Chi. Seeing how he is a legitimate government recognized Grandmaster in China I think that it would be appropriate to recognize his opinion.
Last edited by willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby windwalker on Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:57 am

willie wrote:
windwalker wrote:
Its still not your's its his.

a native speaker might be able to give and understand the root word

Windwalker again you are wrong.
A direct understanding means exactly that. The meaning that my grand teacher has stated is the exact same meaning and functionality as the one that I understand. That's why I intentionally got as close to the top guys in the world as I could.

Then on the other part of your statement. My grand teacher is a native speaker and the quote that I posted is Fang songs meaning in Tai Chi


yo, not going to argue the point. It's your grand teacher not mine.
Don't agree with it, as far as functionality, as described we also seem to have some differences
which while interesting doesn't matter much in the scheme of things.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby windwalker on Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:22 am

a good example

"Radical-radical compounds, in which each element of the character (called radical) hints at the meaning. For example, 休 'rest' is composed of the characters for 'person' (人) and 'tree' (木), with the intended idea of someone leaning against a tree, i.e. resting."

It would have been good to have started with the root word to understand the meaning and how it evolved. Which a native speaker, would probably understand in a way that a non native speaker would not once its either asked or pointed out...Probably most don't go into as its not needed.

later, going to lean against a tree :-\
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:26 am

charles wrote:
Willie wrote:
The tree branch sits in it's relaxed state and then it starts to snow outside.
The tree branch starts to bend from the weight of the snow, it is now under tension and NOT relaxed.
The molecules in the top part of the branch are being stretched and the bottom compressed.
This creates Peng. It is also a bow. It also is yin and yang in one limb...
As you can see "relax" is not the correct understanding.



windwalker wrote:Do you agree with this explanation of the metaphor ?


It notes that the peng is not there until its stressed is does this make sense ?


Repeatedly, throughout this discussion of "song", people have blurred a distinction between "Peng" and "song".

Hi Charles. I actually got something out of this thread. By me trying to decipher that riddles meaning of the snow-covered branch, I finally figured out that the Yang Style master who wrote it was even more incorrect then I first realized. The snow-covered tree branch has nothing to do with Fang song. It is only the description of peng Jin. So the yang style master who created his riddle, didn't even have his riddle in the right category to begin with.
Last edited by willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby Trip on Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:52 am

Greetings Interloper,

The Fang Song thread has gone too far off the rails for me. But, before I departed...

I can appreciate the points of the many other people who have written here (and thank you, Trip, Bao, Trick and all, for putting your views forth so succinctly).

Thank you for your generosity!

IME, beginners, especially, need a no-frills foundation lexicon and set of directions...

I didn't mean to imply that there is no place for such things. It's just that the riddles, and the "figure it out on your own" stuff should not come until the student has a foundation -- a tool kit -- to use to find the answers...

You’re concerned about beginning students given a firm foundation 1st. I think it’s a understandable concern to have for a beginning student.

Thanks for sharing.
Fang Song 2018 :)

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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby Trick on Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:06 am

willie wrote:I actually got something out of this thread. By me trying to decipher that riddles meaning of the snow-covered branch, I finally figured out that the Yang Style master who wrote it was even more incorrect then I first realized. The snow-covered tree branch has nothing to do with Fang song. It is only the description of peng Jin. So the yang style master who created his riddle, didn't even have his riddle in the right category to begin with.

Hi Willie, not going to debate about Song, i'm just interested who is/was the Yang-style master that "came up" with the snow covered tree branch metaphor? The very same metaphor can be found in some classical(Koryu)Japanese MA traditions where I believe it have the meaning of yielding.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby cloudz on Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:25 am

willie wrote:Hi Charles. I actually got something out of this thread. By me trying to decipher that riddles meaning of the snow-covered branch, I finally figured out that the Yang Style master who wrote it was even more incorrect then I first realized. The snow-covered tree branch has nothing to do with Fang song. It is only the description of peng Jin. So the yang style master who created his riddle, didn't even have his riddle in the right category to begin with.


A Yang style master created this riddle ??
:D
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby charles on Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:23 am

windwalker wrote:Interesting approach one I had not expected from you it seems very mechanical.


I'm a mechanical engineer. I've designed and made musical instruments for more than three decades...

The tree and everything that's part of it is in a state of "equilibrium" anything that disturbs this is trying to overcome this. Restoring force is what restores the system back to its org equilibrium.


Sure, the tree is in static equilibrium. An applied force can disturb that state of equilibrium. To maintain the state of equilibrium, the tree "resists" with an equal and opposite force. If the applied force bends the tree within its elastic range, the elasticity of the tree will return the tree to its unbent condition when the applied force is removed. It behaves like a leaf spring or an archery bow.

How much force is outlined by "pin needles or hair" So we have something that is straight, and yet flexible, like a string on a violin.


A small force applied to a straight, flexible, elastic pine needle will cause the needle to bend.

To much slack, it wont resonate, to little it might snap or be off key the amount of tautness relates to what some call pung jin, fan song relates to being of one medium with out breaks or blockages.


If the pine needle is limp - not sufficiently stiff and elastic - it will not return to its original shape after the bending force is removed. If the pine needle is too stiff or brittle, it will not bend, but will break. Peng jin, you state, is then the state of elastic taughtness - not too limp, not too stiff. Fang song, you state, is a consistency in the entity that allows that elastic taughtness to occur. (As you've stated previously, uniformity in density.)

Why push it when you can send a wave through it, rope or an arm is just a medium, the forces that interact are what causes the reactions seen in many demos.


That's an interesting statement. Why push on a rope if you can send a wave through it?

"All matter can exhibit wave-like behavior. For example, a beam of electrons can be diffracted just like a beam of light or a water wave. The concept that matter behaves like a wave was proposed by Louis de Broglie (/dəˈbrɔɪ/) in 1924. It is also referred to as the de Broglie hypothesis.[1] Matter waves are referred to as de Broglie waves."


The problem with the "wave theory" of martial arts is the practical implementation. A wave is a periodic oscillation in which energy is transferred through a medium, but the medium's mass is not transferred. How, in terms of practical martial application, is a wave created in the human body?

If I understand you correctly, Peng jin is the taughtness of the body that allows a wave to propagate through the body. What instigates the wave that goes through the body? What is the "plucking" that starts that "string" into vibration/oscillation?
Last edited by charles on Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:41 am

Trick wrote:
willie wrote:I actually got something out of this thread. By me trying to decipher that riddles meaning of the snow-covered branch, I finally figured out that the Yang Style master who wrote it was even more incorrect then I first realized. The snow-covered tree branch has nothing to do with Fang song. It is only the description of peng Jin. So the yang style master who created his riddle, didn't even have his riddle in the right category to begin with.

Hi Willie, not going to debate about Song, i'm just interested who is/was the Yang-style master that "came up" with the snow covered tree branch metaphor? The very same metaphor can be found in some classical(Koryu)Japanese MA traditions where I believe it have the meaning of yielding.

Hi trick, that's a very good question. I don't remember who posted that riddle, but I have heard similar riddles from my days in Yang Style. There was even a riddle about the Dantian being like a snow-covered Mountain, if I remember correctly. But you bring up an interesting point which brings me back to why I chose a strong lineage, if you remember, I had talked several times about trying to stay away from third-party opinions. It's too hard to figure out the origin of the riddles, so it's probably best just to stay away from them all together.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:51 am

cloudz wrote:
A Yang style master created this riddle ??
:D
hi clouds. I would have to say that you are correct. I have no idea where some of these riddles come from. Where does the riddle about the lady with the long hair hanging down come from? Where does the riddle about the buoyancy of a boat being equivalent to, I believe peng jin, come from?
This is just another example of why it's important to be involved in a strong lineage and have access 2 someone who is extremely close to the top experts. In that way, when you're not sure you can just go ask. And the answer should be the same answer as the next person in line. In other words I should be saying the same thing as my teacher he should be saying the same thing as his teacher and his teacher should be saying that same thing as his teacher. Every time something is added or taken away there is a chance that the meaning is lost.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby windwalker on Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:00 am

charles wrote:
windwalker wrote:Interesting approach one I had not expected from you it seems very mechanical.


I'm a mechanical engineer. I've designed and made musical instruments for more than three decades...

Good, I would have figured you'd work it out but maybe not. One of my students here a very close friend and long time taiji practitioner, a Distinguished Professor of Power Mechanical Engineering he teaches robotics in one of the colleges here, has been invaluable in the “work” . Providing a good sounding board for most of the theories we work with. So far most of the work has been consistent when aligned with physics that explains them



The problem with the "wave theory" of martial arts is the practical implementation. A wave is a periodic oscillation in which energy is transferred through a medium, but the medium's mass is not transferred. How, in terms of practical martial application, is a wave created in the human body?
Its not a problem and has been shown, and can be explained. The problem is for those who either have not worked with this idea in mind or have not come in contact with it yet. Martialy It tends to disrupt the others body at the point of contact and cause reactions that many question :-\ ....

If I understand you correctly, Peng jin is the taughtness of the body that allows a wave to propagate through the body. What instigates the wave that goes through the body? What is the "plucking" that starts that "string" into vibration/oscillation?


Very easy to understand, actually I covered it but you seemed to have missed it awhile back.

My friend did the translation its literal, which aligns quite well with the physics we use to explain whats happening and how.


Image

Wei Shuren's book on taiji.

"圖一(Figure 1)

以懸掛的古鐘為例(圖一),鐘體中心有一條垂直線,線下端繫一鐘錘。內功練到較高境界時,鐘錘可以旋轉,上縱及下伸。
若以古鐘比喻人體,鐘口即是三道氣圈的胯氣圈,鐘蒂為肩氣圈,中間為腰氣圈。
Take a hanging ancient bell for example(Figure 1), inside the bell frame there is a string hanging vertically at the center. The end of the string ties a deadweight. When the internal strength (Jin) reaches a higher level, **the deadweight can rotate, leap upward and stretch downward. To compare the ancient bell with the human body, the bell opening corresponds to the hip’s ring of chi among the three rings of chi. The bell crown corresponds to the shoulders’ ring of chi, and the middle of the bell to the waists’ ring of chi.

把古鐘的垂直線均分為四段,即形成五個點。(圖二)
(一) 頂點;位於人的咽喉,乃點穴之門,故又稱為絕命點,因為它不容易動轉,是權衡身體變動的準星。
(二) 上死點: 因受頂點的牽掛而活動範圍小,此處受力不易化解,故稱死點。
(三) 靈活點: 相當於人的心口處,是人身旋轉最靈活,最難控制的一處。推手時要由此處探出反應再擊死點。
(四) 下死點: 受鐘錘垂墜的影響而活動範圍不大,內勁向此點擊發易於奏效。
(五) 下垂點:位於垂直線最下端,是鐘錘所在處。此點在人的兩胯之中,它一動變影響全身,所以通常把它當作穩固下盤之用。"

** kind of echos what Interloper had posted

If one can do it, much of the meaning can be expressed using modern physics to explain and test it by.

In answer to your questions. Its a different model. There are things that can be done using this that can not be done with out it.
I really don't see the need to explain it any more detail only to say as I have said that there are different models based on physics that at least IME explain a lot of what some feel is unexplainable.

Like you, I tend not use words like qi, yi or some of the other buzz words until a solid foundation has been built using a physics based approach first which then is aligned with what is described using what some might call traditional verbiage.

The thread started by asking what "song" meant which I suggested it might be a good idea to understand it from its root characters.




The upper character means hair or pine needles.
The lower character means pine tree.

The common meanings loose, release or relaxed are what most use and question.

Another way to look at it could mean to be straight like a pine tree, with flexibility like pine needles.

Standing straight like a pine tree, allows one to manifest what is called "peng jin" or expanding force.

Pine needles are easily moved by the wind, and yet are part of the pine tree. They too have peng jin, while still being flexible.

Using this definition would explain why peng arises from being fan song...
one needs to understand fan song, before one can get peng jin.


that turned really well :P

Just sharing some thoughts based on my own work...reading the others I do find them interesting.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:53 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Song, what does it mean?

Postby willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:37 am

charles wrote:
willie wrote:This is a very clear video of someone who truly has acquired fang song.



Here is a randomly-selected representative demonstration of the 42 international form. Is this a clear video of someone who truly has acquired fang song?



How about this one?



How can you tell by watching? What do you look for that gives an indication of their being "song" or not? [Hint: being slow and/or smooth/flowing don't necessarily equate to being song.]

Hi Charles, I didn't notice this post of yours until now. What I was watching in the other video that I had posted was just the lower end of the body. I was carefully observing how unimpeded his joints were. Fang song is more about the joints and keeping the stresses off of them. I actually don't think that very many posts on this thread are even in the vicinity of speaking of fang song. Fang song has nothing to do with pine trees, nothing to do with pine needles, nothing to do with a woman's hair, nothing to do with snow on a tree limb. Nothing to do with waves , nothing to do with oscilloscopes , nothing to do with vibration , nothing to do with guitar strings . It's about keeping the load off of the joints so that the joints are open and move unimpeded. "A fly would set taichi in motion"
Last edited by willie on Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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