Weight difference

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Weight difference

Postby middleway on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:49 am

In some recent threads, weight difference has been cited as a major reason for one person winning a bout over another.

....Some are ignoring what seems to be
a big weight difference....

... how much do think the weight difference was? Does it matter? ...

...I think the weight difference is critical. It's why there are weight divisions....



Which i thought might be worth exploring in its own thread.

It seems to me that there is some cognative dissidence occuring. People will claim in one breath the 'superior mechanics of the internal arts' and in the next 'if the guys bigger they win.'

Personally I have tested the size problem in non compliant settings. I am about 5.8 and I currently weight about 79kgs.

One of the ways in which i tested this (a few years ago now) is I fought in the Ultra Heavy Division (no maximum weight but above 105kgs) of the Welsh Open Championships Gettting to the finals and achieving a silver. At the time i was a lightweight at about 76kgs.

Here I am with some of the division.

Image

This is not a fight of course but it is non compliant grappling where i was out matched in pretty much all physical metrics, height, weight, strength, and against one opponent in particular, i am pretty sure, stamina. The grappling skill difference wasnt very big IMO, we were all roughly the same grade and most of my opponents had been training longer than me in BJJ. However, I got to the finals and ended up with a silver after a points loss. IMO my body method was the differentiating factor that allowed me to handle the superior metrics of my opponents.

I accept that in a striking setting the difference will be more apparant than in a grappling setting. The KO power of higher mass opponents is well known, but i think the general discussion still has merit.

Classically, the internal arts often claim to be able to overcome superior force (weight, strength etc)

"a force of only four ounces can overcome a force of one thousand pounds" etc etc.

The question is, at what point do you think size 'doesnt matter' when it comes to internal arts training? or does it Always matter? Or just your general thoughts on how the internal arts deal with superior size and strength.

Thanks.
Last edited by middleway on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:58 am, edited 6 times in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4424
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Weight difference

Postby Bao on Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:29 am

Interesting, thank you for sharing your experience. 8-)

IMO it's more about situation and/or rules/lack of rules. It depends. Hard to make a general statement. Regardless weight and size, everyone have their own weaknesses and strengths. Being strong or big doesn't mean that you are quick or that you know how to utilise that weight in a punch. But I do believe that if you have less in size and strength, the less room there is for mistakes and errors. And obviously fighting experience is something that matters, regardless weight and size.

Middleway wrote: Classically, the internal arts often claim to be able to overcome superior force (weight, strength etc)


IMO, this originally comes from a certain type of strategy based on not exposing intent or weakness and about unpredictability, like Li Yaxuan stated:" Taijiquan is a skill based on unpredictable opportunity." People speak a lot about qi and yi, but very little about how to use IMA in fighting. Most people don't know the strategies and tactics the arts are based upon, so they still can't use their arts as they are intended to use.

Li Yaxuan wrote:Taijiquan is a skill with shape and without shape. Although it has shape when an opponent attacks you, your whole body must be very reserved and display nearly nothing in there. This will make the opponent catch an empty shadow so to speak and, thus, not harm you. If the enemy thinks you are empty and, on the other hand, if you show your emptiness but can suddenly attack like thunder, thunder so quick and strong that people must duck and cover their ears, so as to make them totally scared, scared for their life, then this is enticing into emptiness. Taijiquan is a skill based on unpredictable opportunity. If the other thinks you cannot attack, you should just move your mind suddenly to attack. If others think you will come then you should transform as if you have nothing to attack. This is the so-called "being suddenly visible; suddenly invisible".


https://www.qi-journal.com/Taiji.asp?-token.D=Article&-MaxRecords=1&-SkipRecords=1&-Op=bw&Name=The%20Key%20to%20Practicing%20Taijiquan%27s%20Skill%20&-Op=bw

What is interesting about Li is that he fought a lot, he wasn't afraid to test his skills and he proved himself in fights and won competitions. He was also a martial arts/wushu coach and teacher. He firmly believed that the IMA mind-set and it's focus on relaxation and softness could be used, not only for real fighting, but also in a competition environment.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6149
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Weight difference

Postby middleway on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:04 am

IMO it's more about situation and/or rules/lack of rules. It depends. Hard to make a general statement.


I agree, generalities are very hard to make here. However, we cant collapse the discussion to the level of the individual and the 'Its not the method its the person' perspective IMO and maintain a fruitful discussion. Regarding ruleset, I was the smallest guy on my door security team too and there definately werent any rules for the opponents in that world (although there were plenty for us!). I am also not very fast IMO. There are other things that can level the playing field of course, size and speed being two, but you dont have to have either if other attributes are well developed.

If the enemy thinks you are empty and, on the other hand, if you show your emptiness but can suddenly attack like thunder, thunder so quick and strong that people must duck and cover their ears, so as to make them totally scared, scared for their life, then this is enticing into emptiness.


Love it, sounds like something Steve Morris would say! :)

I think the ability to 'change' naturally, and to be completely in tune with the moment to moment conditions of the fight is a big advantage for those that can do it. One of the biggest things I love about the Good internal arts fighters i have met is their abiltity to be Changable. So changable as to never give you some concrete position to establish and attacking or defensive plan, this is partially what i think 'emptyness' refers too. This is something high level BJJ black belts can also do as pointed out my Tim Cartmell etc.

thanks for the quote. :)
Last edited by middleway on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4424
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Weight difference

Postby Giles on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:06 am

Size / mass / muscle strength is always going to be a major factor, obviously, but it doesn’t always have be the determining factor. I’ll avoid deconstructing the term “internal” for the 100th time on RSF and, speaking as a tai chi guy, confine it to using the energies of peng, lu, ji, an in a reasonably clear way. (And by this I don’t mean trying to reproduce form movements 1-to-1, OK guys !?!?).

I weigh about the same as you, Chris: 79-80 kg but distributed over a different body shape, long and lanky in my case. My body doesn’t look very ‘martial’ ;D . One of my students is a roadie who still shifts heavy equipment around for a living, he’s a little taller than me and weighs, I guess, at least 125 kg. He used to train some wing chun and although he’s a nice guy he is not someone who tries to make the teacher (me) look good when we cross hands. If I try to grapple/struggle with him in a ‘normal’ way, he can just pick me and potentially break me in half. If I apply my (limited) tai chi skills in a clean manner, without freezing, tensing or collapsing, with good timing and sticking, then I don’t get tied up or crushed by him and mostly I can unbalance/uproot him, move him around and maybe take him down. I don’t send him flying, but maybe stumbling a little. But it’s getting a little harder for me, because his body organisation/structure is gradually changing, learning some tai chi principles. The better he gets at training the stuff, then harder it will be for me and the more his extra mass may indeed become the defining factor. Unless I keep improving too…

When I’m training/playing with my 12-year-old daughter (who has my kind of long body frame) and I grab her by the arms (acting like a ‘normal’ aggressor, not being ‘tai chi guy’), then if she tenses or collapses and/or uses upper-body strength, then she has zero effect on me. If she manages to do a reasonably clean technique (+/- lu and lieh), using her hips and legs too, then she takes me down so fast it’s still surprising for me. Doesn’t happen often, but when it does, there’s no doubt about it.

So if you’re to have some chance against a bigger, stronger opponent:
A. You must be able to do the techniques freely and adaptably WITH the internal energies.
B. You must be well-trained in NOT freezing, NOT tensing, NOT collapsing when you’re adrenalized. Not only not freezing up in general terms (cf. Rory Miller), but also keeping the joints open, especially in the hips (assuming you’re still standing). As soon as you lose the ‘well-oiled’ quality in the hips, as soon as you start locking up your joints and resisting in an attempt to be ‘strong’ in the instinctive sense, then the bigger, stronger guy will probably crush you. If you don't separate empty and full i.e. if you become double weighted, then the bigger, stronger guy will immediately have you.
C. Especially when fighting a stronger, bigger guy (when standing) you must train to step in closer at the right moment. Because he’s bigger than you, instinct tries to keep you distant from him even more than otherwise, and tells you that you must use ‘all your strength’, but precisely for this reason you have to go in close with the technique(s) and use the proper energies – i.e. with correct relaxation/’song’.
D. You have to train this a lot, slower and faster, more structured and more chaotically, so that it becomes more conditioned.
E. This doesn’t mean you can be sure of beating a bigger, stronger guy, obviously. It’s still a bad situation. But it gives you a better chance. If the other bigger guy also trains the same stuff, or is skilled in other ways, then for sure things will get increasingly bleak for you. Generally speaking.

My experience of ground fighting with guys bigger than me is limited (a year or so of MMA training) so I won’t presume to talk about that. You and a few others on RSF can maybe tell us more about that.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Huajing
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Weight difference

Postby jaime_g on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:20 am

A good friend of mine is 41 years old, 75kg. He has always been a fighter (stickfighting, muay thai, bjj, etc), but he started to focus on internal training three years ago.

Last weekend, after a bit more than three years without seeing him, he met again another friend with a very strong judo-bjj background, heavier than him, who traings with kettlebells, bodyweight, barbells,etc a lot. Previously to his internal training, he never could throw that guy and ended thrown everytime by him. This time, he achieved many throws and never was in danger of being thrown.

Considering that besides sparring sessions he trains alone, the main responsible of that change was the internal training he does daily.
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Weight difference

Postby GrahamB on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:21 am

Stable Genius.
Winky Faces Make Your Texts Sarcastic, Scientists Say
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11157
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Weight difference

Postby windwalker on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:34 am

Reading the threads some seem to be mixing up, strategies with attributes, some that are natural others that can be developed.

middleway wrote:In some recent threads, weight difference has been cited as a major reason for one person winning a bout over another.

....Some are ignoring what seems to be
a big weight difference....

... how much do think the weight difference was? Does it matter? ...


"A fighter must be able to make weight, and he obviously cannot alter his height, so his bodyweight must be the most efficient for his style."

This is why some fighters are great at one division and duds when they move up. Former light-heavy champ Bob Foster was considered by many the best ever at 175 pounds. He was unbeatable there, but like many light-heavyweights he was tempted to try his luck in the more remunerative heavyweight division."

RELATED: A History of Boxing's Greatest Champions



Heavyweight fights with Ali, Quarry, and Frazier ended with Foster being knocked out. At 6’3” he was rangy, but effective with light-heavies. But he did not have the leverage to do damage to men the same height but thirty to forty pounds heavier. Foster gained ten pounds or so, most of it muscle, making him stronger - but he still had to throw punches at much sturdier targets. Not to mention, the effect of their punches on his body.
https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/the- ... ghtlifting



...I think the weight difference is critical. It's why there are weight divisions....




Which i thought might be worth exploring in its own thread.

It seems to me that there is some cognative dissidence occuring. People will claim in one breath the 'superior mechanics of the internal arts' and in the next 'if the guys bigger they win.'

Personally I have tested the size problem in non compliant settings. I am about 5.8 and I currently weight about 79kgs.

One of the ways in which i tested this (a few years ago now) is I fought in the Ultra Heavy Division (no maximum weight but above 105kgs) of the Welsh Open Championships Gettting to the finals and achieving a silver. At the time i was a lightweight at about 76kgs.

Here I am with some of the division.

This is not a fight of course but it is non compliant grappling where i was out matched in pretty much all physical metrics, height, weight, strength, and against one opponent in particular, i am pretty sure, stamina. The grappling skill difference wasnt very big IMO, we were all roughly the same grade and most of my opponents had been training longer than me in BJJ. However, I got to the finals and ended up with a silver after a points loss. IMO my body method was the differentiating factor that allowed me to handle the superior metrics of my opponents.

I accept that in a striking setting the difference will be more apparant than in a grappling setting. The KO power of higher mass opponents is well known, but i think the general discussion still has merit.

Classically, the internal arts often claim to be able to overcome superior force (weight, strength etc)

This is not what is claimed

"a force of only four ounces can overcome a force of one thousand pounds" etc etc.
Another misunderstanding of a suggestion about using a different strategy not based on
size, weight, strength ect. This thead speaks to this viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26883


The question is, at what point do you think size 'doesnt matter' when it comes to internal arts training? or does it Always matter? Or just your general thoughts on how the internal arts deal with superior size and strength.

Thanks.


What matters is skill, and type of skill, which if not enough will not be able to overcome the natural attributes that some are born with.
IME one deals with with superior size, and strength by not contending with it. If one does not understand or know how this is done then its a problem... :P

In CMA a lot of what drove the formation of different styles was the search for some way to nullify the natural attributes that some are borne with. Whether the assumptions "different styles" still hold true for todays time is debatable more so since many of the styles noted for past exploits no longer have current practitioners that they can point to who compete in open venues. This was true in the 70s its true today . .
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6461
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Weight difference

Postby Dmitri on Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:25 am


Second part's much more interesting:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH7Q1OUNkrU


As for the OP's question,
at what point do you think size 'doesnt matter' when it comes to internal arts training? or does it Always matter?

I've come to view "skill" (technical advantage) and "size" (physical advantage) as two sides of the same coin. They definitely both matter, to varying degrees (depending on the individuals involved). But regardless of individual experiences or physiques, the following seems to always be true: Between two guys of the same size but different skills, the better-skilled guy is more likely to win. Between two guys of the same skill but different sizes, the bigger guy is more likely to win.
Last edited by Dmitri on Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9433
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: Weight difference

Postby RobP3 on Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:29 am

middleway wrote:In some recent threads, weight difference has been cited as a major reason for one person winning a bout over another.



I suspect weight difference is largely brought up by the losing side....
"Remember, if your life seems dull and boring - it is" Derek & Clive
www.systemauk.com
RobP3
Wuji
 
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:30 am
Location: UK

Re: Weight difference

Postby Steve James on Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:57 am

Well, all I meant the was that the smaller, weaker person has to be better.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16761
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Weight difference

Postby Trick on Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:40 am

Bao wrote:What is interesting about Li is that he fought a lot, he wasn't afraid to test his skills and he proved himself in fights and won competitions. He was also a martial arts/wushu coach and teacher. He firmly believed that the IMA mind-set and it's focus on relaxation and softness could be used, not only for real fighting, but also in a competition environment.
Li yaxuan's yang Taiji is one of the three YCF-Taiji "favours" I have learned and I like it very much. I have not confirmed it but I believe LYX and ZMQ amongst others continued their practice together when settled in Sichuan province during the Japanese invasion and of them LYX definitely seem to be the superior. Your statement about LYX winning many fights/competitions is quite interesting what/where are the records of these fights?....thanks for the link to Qi-journal.......sorry for getting off topic 8-)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Weight difference

Postby middleway on Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:50 am

I suspect weight difference is largely brought up by the losing side....


haha - usually it is, Just like when Connor Mcgregor was beaten by Nate Diaz ... suddenly it was a case of the bigger fighter having the advantage. This was not mentioned in the rematch however ... go figure ::)

Well, all I meant the was that the smaller, weaker person has to be better.


To be clear i wasnt calling anyone out on that opinion, only that i thought it was a good topic for discussion.

What matters is skill, and type of skill, which if not enough will not be able to overcome the natural attributes that some are born with.
IME one deals with with superior size, and strength by not contending with it. If one does not understand or know how this is done then its a problem


I think Type of Skill is paramount when thinking about skill. If we say that 'skill' is one aspect that will allow a weaker smaller person to overcome a larger person, we must then ask the follow up question, what kind of skill? Not all skills are equal when it comes to fighting.

Classically, the internal arts often claim to be able to overcome superior force (weight, strength etc)

This is not what is claimed


Yes it is. Note that to overcome doesnt mean to oppose, or even to use the same type of thing. Does the melon peel overcome the force of the person stepping on it? Yes.

But i think there is something else to this discussion asside from 'skill'. It is how the trained body can help us against greater, more classical strength, or body mass. There are things you can do with the body that completely negate incoming forces during exchange, even with huge guys. I wouldnt necissarily call the trained body a 'skill' per say, it is more of a 'state'.

What are peoples thoughts on this?
Last edited by middleway on Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4424
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Weight difference

Postby Trick on Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:51 am

windwalker wrote:What matters is skill, and type of skill, which if not enough will not be able to overcome the natural attributes that some are born with.
.

Remember back when I used to watch the K-1. There where American football players and sumo wrestlers of considerable size both fatty and muscled, most of the fighters where compared to them of smaller size but they where fighters.....One fight that stuck in my mind was Mirco Crocop against the Beast Bob Sapp..it was over quickly, clearly a matter of skill.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Weight difference

Postby jaime_g on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:07 am

I would say that there are a few skills that should raise some eyebrowns when an internally trained body fights against a normal one.

One pretty obvious for me is turning from the waist . It should make a big difference.
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Weight difference

Postby Steve James on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:11 am

Oh, no worries. I get it was just a quote. When I competed, there were weight divisions, but there was also final matches to pick the "grand champion." It could end up that a lightweight would face a heavyweight or middleweight. There was no predetermined outcome because the fighters were all skillful.

In terms of the overall argument, it doesn't make sense to say that size, weight, strength don't matter. They do. The question is whether they will be the defining factors in an engagement. Assuming that "all things being equal" is a fallacy because all things are never equal. If it were so, there'd be no male and female divisions in sport.

Otoh, the bigger person doesn't always win. However, it is expected that a person's or an army's size is an asset --whether considered an advantage or not. Speed and mobility are also assets that can end up being the defining factors. Then there are matters of positioning, targeting, and simple luck or good fortune. I only bring up this Suntzi stuff to argue that everyone has a "chance."

It's just not impressive when a heavyweight beats up a lightweight. Sure, I've seen Conor versus the man mountain :). I saw the little Indian guy against the larger wrestler. Shucks, I saw Ali v Foreman. They were impressive because they surprised our expectations.

Anyway, I know it wasn't meant that way, but size isn't an excuse for beating someone. Bullies think that way. So, in an ideal world, one would just take a baseball bat to his knee or back of his head, and then see what he says. Oops, that doesn't sound so taichi. Then again, I'm getting old. I think it'd be perfectly fair to allow me to have a bat or something sharp.:)
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16761
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests