Weight difference

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Weight difference

Postby middleway on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:35 am

In terms of the overall argument, it doesn't make sense to say that size, weight, strength don't matter. They do.


Yes they do of course, The discussion was more related to how they matter, and if there are ways people think consistantly negate them :)

So, in an ideal world, one would just take a baseball bat to his knee or back of his head, and then see what he says. Oops, that doesn't sound so taichi. Then again, I'm getting old. I think it'd be perfectly fair to allow me to have a bat or something sharp.:)


Doesnt sound like too ideal a world ;) haha but i know what you mean. Weapons are a great equaliser.
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Re: Weight difference

Postby Bhassler on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:37 am

middleway wrote:But i think there is something else to this discussion asside from 'skill'. It is how the trained body can help us against greater, more classical strength, or body mass. There are things you can do with the body that completely negate incoming forces during exchange, even with huge guys. I wouldnt necissarily call the trained body a 'skill' per say, it is more of a 'state'.

What are peoples thoughts on this?


Off the top of my head, I would break it down to skills and attributes. Skills could further be broken down to active skills and passive skills. Active skills are what folks commonly think of as skills, whereas a passive skill might be something like all the different ways you learn to breathe through experience when rolling with someone. You don't necessarily think about it, and many might not even be aware that they do it at all, but being able to breathe into the chest or belly or back or upper ribs or whatever, and switch between them, is kind of important when you have someone trying to smother you. You can learn to do it actively, but in practice it's something that your autonomic nervous system does for you automagically.

I would break attributes down into trainable and untrainable as well. Attributes like strength, speed, and endurance can be trained to certain limits. Sensitivity is almost limitless, but may reach a point of diminishing returns. Size and body type (not body composition) really can't be trained.

So when you talk about the ability to negate incoming forces, it depends on how you do it. If you're talking about allowing it to pass through your structure (whether skeletal, liquid, or something else), I would consider that a passive skill. If you've just conditioned yourself through practice (internal or external) to where your body is like an old tire and stuff kind of bounces off, then I would consider that an attribute. I think size comes up because it's pretty much the only thing that really can't be trained for at all-- your genetics are what they are.

In the broader sense, I believe all of this MA/IMA stuff is a collection of simple things that interact in complex ways, but that doesn't change the fact that the component pieces are in and of themselves pretty simple and straightforward. So I'm interested in the simple component parts, but when the conversation moves to conceptually esoteric things like qi or "internal", or somatically esoteric things like "fascia" or "dan tien", I tend to lose interest, as it's just not useful to me.
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Re: Weight difference

Postby Ron Panunto on Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:05 pm

A good heavyweight will almost always beat a good lightweight. A good lightweight might beat a bad heavyweight. Isn't that what we train for?
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Re: Weight difference

Postby windwalker on Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:59 pm

middleway wrote:
Classically, the internal arts often claim to be able to overcome superior force (weight, strength etc)

wndwalker: This is not what is claimed


Yes it is. Note that to overcome doesnt mean to oppose, or even to use the same type of thing. Does the melon peel overcome the force of the person stepping on it? Yes. No. What it does do is to allow the force to continue instead of stopping at the contact point. The operative word "allow" according to its nature It allows the persons own force to overcome the friction needed to stop it, causing slipping.

But i think there is something else to this discussion asside from 'skill'. It is how the trained body can help us against greater, more classical strength, or body mass. There are things you can do with the body that completely negate incoming forces during exchange, even with huge guys. I wouldnt necissarily call the trained body a 'skill' per say, it is more of a 'state'.

What are peoples thoughts on this?


Is not the ability to achieve a certain body "state" as you say a skill?

Are not forces felt on the body only experienced as the force it takes to resist them ?

If one learns how not resist a force one never feels it, this does not negate the mass its always there it only changes the relationship so that what one perceives as force is no longer felt by the one its applied to, the one applying a force may feel a great force "their own" or none , depending on how the one interacted with manages their own force. I use wave theory to understand and manage body states as you call it.



"In a standing wave the nodes are a series of locations at equally spaced intervals where the wave amplitude (motion) is zero . At these points the two waves add with opposite phase and cancel each other out. They occur at intervals of half a wavelength (λ/2). Midway between each pair of nodes are locations where the amplitude is maximum. These are called the antinodes. At these points the two waves add with the same phase and reinforce each other"

This has to be trained, which has an effect on how the body manages and perceives force while not conferring the ability to use the body to lift objects or exert force of its own directly,.

Like the water melon peel it does allow one to understand and manage their own force in a natural way ..
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Weight difference

Postby Bao on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:47 pm

Trick wrote:Li yaxuan's yang Taiji is one of the three YCF-Taiji "favours" I have learned and I like it very much. I have not confirmed it but I believe LYX and ZMQ amongst others continued their practice together when settled in Sichuan province during the Japanese invasion and of them LYX definitely seem to be the superior.


Yes, he went to Sichuan and became the head teacher of the Sichuan Martial Arts School and coached the sanda team. He understood fighting all right. His daughter is still alive and live there teaching her father's Tai Chi.
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Re: Weight difference

Postby Steve James on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:52 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:A good heavyweight will almost always beat a good lightweight. A good lightweight might beat a bad heavyweight. Isn't that what we train for?


Good and bad are relative, at any given moment. I think training in anything just gives one a shot at defending oneself. Effectiveness or success is defined by survival, not necessarily by overcoming the opponent.

The context of heavyweight versus a lightweight was an unarmed competition. A lightweight can beat a heavyweight in a competition, especially if he or she is more skillful. The old UFC proved that. A lightweight can choke almost anyone out. I'm not counting Andre the giant types. What a lightweight boxer probably can't do is knock a heavyweight out with one punch. (I mean another heavyweight boxer). If the heavyweight hits the lightweight consistently, I'll put my money on him. However, I was taught that the science of boxing was about not getting hit.
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Re: Weight difference

Postby Steve James on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:49 pm

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Re: Weight difference

Postby vadaga on Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:45 am

Last edited by vadaga on Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weight difference

Postby Subitai on Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:58 pm

I've always been taught this: "All things being equal (except size) ...bigger usually wins". It's not 100% but more often.

Hence same skill level, same years of experience...ECT ECT...but one of them is bigger in size....there you go ( empty hands ie)

Weapons on the other hand can be a great size equalizer.
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Re: Weight difference

Postby windwalker on Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:35 pm

Subitai wrote:I've always been taught this: "All things being equal (except size) ...bigger usually wins". It's not 100% but more often.

Hence same skill level, same years of experience...ECT ECT...but one of them is bigger in size....there you go ( empty hands ie)

Weapons on the other hand can be a great size equalizer.


Which is why many styles in CMA were created, trying to give one an edge that was not based on physical attributes
against the type and kind of fighters they encountered back in the day.

In many cases styles arose after a noted MA lost a match...the "style" was their answer. It could be very specific answering one type of encounter or very broad based depending on need and encounter that prompted the style creation. All CMA has to deal with the 3 ranges and include kicking, hitting and throwing incorporated into their own unique specializations.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Weight difference

Postby Trick on Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:07 pm

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Li yaxuan's yang Taiji is one of the three YCF-Taiji "favours" I have learned and I like it very much. I have not confirmed it but I believe LYX and ZMQ amongst others continued their practice together when settled in Sichuan province during the Japanese invasion and of them LYX definitely seem to be the superior.


Yes, he went to Sichuan and became the head teacher of the Sichuan Martial Arts School and coached the sanda team. He understood fighting all right. His daughter is still alive and live there teaching her father's Tai Chi.

Yes Chen Longxiang student and son in law of LYX is the teacher of one of my YTJQ teachers here in China. Came to Dalian to hold a seminar a while ago but I was out of town. For sure someone to look up if I find myself in Chengdu
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Re: Weight difference

Postby Trick on Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:40 pm

The bigger they are the harder they fall. Seen it a couple of times when I was younger, big bad bullies go down. Those kind of guys often targeting what they think is an easy prey, the element of surprise seem to work quite well against such people...but of course in that kind of scenario (at least the ones I have seen) they never been well trained athletes/fighters but bigger they where
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Re: Weight difference

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:34 am

I agree that martial arts were created to neutralize size and weight advantages. I think the same is true for weapons. I.e., you bring a knife, next time I bring a sword, next time you bring a spear, then I use arrows, etc.

Anyway, I thought of Musashi on Ganryu Island.
Last edited by Steve James on Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Weight difference

Postby .Q. on Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:36 pm

One of my favorite quote, from a praying mantis teacher "Martial art is not magic art." It gives a smaller guy a better shot at dealing with a bigger guy compared to having no training, but whether that's enough to overcome the bigger guy depends on a lot of factors.
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Re: Weight difference

Postby thepoeticedda on Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:27 pm

Remember too that people usually only attack people if they believe they have the advantage in the fight. So most martial arts with a self defense component are going to have a focus on defending from people who have some sort of advantage against them, weight being a super common one. So yeah, not saying that any style will make you invincible against larger opponents but the idea is we should be training for that
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