Missing link, from form to application

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Missing link, from form to application

Postby rojcewiczj on Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:51 am

It seems to me that the most important missing link between practicing the form and applying those movements against a resisting opponent is the inclusion of head movement. When I say head movement, I mean the movement of the entire central axis via the head. I feel that the most important function of form practice is the separation of the central axis from the rest of the bodies movements, the ability to move the body freely around the central axis without tossing that axis. However, without the ability to adjust that axis to the appropriate position and angle during combat, ones central axis is easily destroyed via pushing/pulling and face punching. It seems to me that some teachers hide the fact that they move their axis to many different angles during combat and almost never stand strait. I would actually go so far to say that most of the skill in combat is in how to appropriately angle and adjust your central axis, and that a posture that is vertically totally strait is a state without intention for fighting, and can only be called wuji. Until one can intentionally and knowingly adjust the angle of the central axis to appropriately neutralize and avoid incoming force then their form remains just for show. Imagine someone entering the boxing ring without any head movement, and we see someone destined to be knocked out. In yet, the traditional martial arts circle seems to revolve defensively around this single aesthetic feature more than any other, the strait back.
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:11 pm

Agreed. I'm very glad you brought up a topic that's been on my mind in light of the series of well-publicized losses TCMAists have sustained in recent months at the hands of Sanda/MMAists in China.

Many TCMAists, especially IMAists, confuse "training" (練) and "practical usage"(用), and thus adamantly insist that the upper-body (including the head) has to be perfectly vertical and straight at all times -- as per Taiji classics. In my opinion, this causes a serious flaw in fighting and turns one's head into an easy fixed target susceptible to knockouts when facing a skilled striker.

In Bagua, there's this old-school low-basin piercing palm drill that people used to do using a table as the training apparatus. It involves standing at one side of the table, dropping into a very low pu-bu stance while moving under it, and come up and return to your normal stance on the other side.

The main purpose of the drill is basically to train a bob-and-weave type of movement that, like you said, involves adjusting the central axis at various heights and angles while maintaining stability. In application, the movement can be done either large or small and used to slip and dodge an incoming strike aimed at the head.
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:33 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Many TCMAists, especially IMAists, confuse "training" (練) and "practical usage"(用), ...

The "training" (練) and "practical usage"(用) should be the same. This way, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. It's not that hard just to modify "training" (練) a little bit to make it "practical usage"(用).
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby jimmy on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:51 pm

Image
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:17 pm

When you hide your head behind your rhino guard, you don't need to move your head.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:31 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Agreed. I'm very glad you brought up a topic that's been on my mind in light of the series of well-publicized losses TCMAists have sustained in recent months at the hands of Sanda/MMAists in China.

Many TCMAists, especially IMAists, confuse "training" (練) and "practical usage"(用), and thus adamantly insist that the upper-body (including the head) has to be perfectly vertical and straight at all times -- as per Taiji classics. In my opinion, this causes a serious flaw in fighting and turns one's head into an easy fixed target susceptible to knockouts when facing a skilled striker.

One can keep vertical, straight, balanced and aligned while moving the head off center (changing head slots) by folding and unfolding (e.g., rotate, open, and close) the hip joint without extra bending in the knees. Folding the rear hip will bring the head back (creating distance) and to the side. Folding the front hip will bring the head forward and to the side.

Rather than say "move the head" (bobbing you're head around at the neck), it is better to say "move the center." "Head-movement" should really be hip-movement. Because,it's your waist and hips that move. The head moving is a happy side-effect. With hip mobility, you get better head-movement that is subtle, and keeps you in range and positions to simultaneously defend and counter. Here is a slip rope drill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTvTJ9RKiE8

C.J.W. wrote:In Bagua, there's this old-school low-basin piercing palm drill that people used to do using a table as the training apparatus. It involves standing at one side of the table, dropping into a very low pu-bu stance while moving under it, and come up and return to your normal stance on the other side.

The main purpose of the drill is basically to train a bob-and-weave type of movement that, like you said, involves adjusting the central axis at various heights and angles while maintaining stability. In application, the movement can be done either large or small and used to slip and dodge an incoming strike aimed at the head.

That is level (elevation) changing. Going too low by bending the knee(s) can compromise your position and create double weightedness. It's more advisable to fold the hips more.

jimmy wrote:Image

Boxers may get away with bending at the waist, head beyond the feet, out of alignment, etc. However, it is not adisable; one can become double weighted and vulnerable to kicks, knees, etc. Here Lomachenko takes advantage of Rigondeaux's bending at the waist.

The Modern Martial Artist
Published on Dec 10, 2017

The fight between Vasyl Lomachenko and Guillermo Rigondeaux was shocking. Lomachenko dismantled an undefeated champion widely considered one of the greatest of all time, making him quit on his stool. While the ending was disappointing, there are a lot of very high level techniques that Lomachenko employed incredibly well throughout the fight. So lets take a look at how Lomachenko absolutely destroyed one of the greatest defenses in boxing, and then quickly examine why Rigondeaux decided to say No Mas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0FoUrdcoWU
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby windwalker on Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:46 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:It seems to me that the most important missing link between practicing the form and applying those movements against a resisting opponent is the inclusion of head movement. When I say head movement, I mean the movement of the entire central axis via the head. I feel that the most important function of form practice is the separation of the central axis from the rest of the bodies movements, the ability to move the body freely around the central axis without tossing that axis. However, without the ability to adjust that axis to the appropriate position and angle during combat, ones central axis is easily destroyed via pushing/pulling and face punching. It seems to me that some teachers hide the fact that they move their axis to many different angles during combat and almost never stand strait. I would actually go so far to say that most of the skill in combat is in how to appropriately angle and adjust your central axis, and that a posture that is vertically totally strait is a state without intention for fighting, and can only be called wuji. Until one can intentionally and knowingly adjust the angle of the central axis to appropriately neutralize and avoid incoming force then their form remains just for show. Imagine someone entering the boxing ring without any head movement, and we see someone destined to be knocked out. In yet, the traditional martial arts circle seems to revolve defensively around this single aesthetic feature more than any other, the strait back.


talks about head movement from a traditional sense within a modern format.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1xp5Q1eJ8k
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby BruceP on Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:06 pm

Mind movement

Perception
Context
Intent
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby Bao on Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:45 am

There's bobbing 'n weaving in tcma, some styles as XYQ and Baji teach a lot of this kind of strategy. But in tcma building a foundation is very important. The foundation is built starting with the legs. Foundation practice is a part of form practice. Sparring is not. If you understand when to practice what, your overall skill will develop quicker. If you believe that western boxing method of practice is better, then why don't you go and practice that instead? ???
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby RobP3 on Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:46 am

Something I posted just recently

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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby RobP3 on Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:48 am

And a specific drill

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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:56 am

rojcewiczj wrote:It seems to me that the most important missing link between practicing the form and applying those movements against a resisting opponent is the inclusion of head movement. When I say head movement, I mean the movement of the entire central axis via the head. I feel that the most important function of form practice is the separation of the central axis from the rest of the bodies movements, the ability to move the body freely around the central axis without tossing that axis. However, without the ability to adjust that axis to the appropriate position and angle during combat, ones central axis is easily destroyed via pushing/pulling and face punching. It seems to me that some teachers hide the fact that they move their axis to many different angles during combat and almost never stand strait. I would actually go so far to say that most of the skill in combat is in how to appropriately angle and adjust your central axis, and that a posture that is vertically totally strait is a state without intention for fighting, and can only be called wuji. Until one can intentionally and knowingly adjust the angle of the central axis to appropriately neutralize and avoid incoming force then their form remains just for show. Imagine someone entering the boxing ring without any head movement, and we see someone destined to be knocked out. In yet, the traditional martial arts circle seems to revolve defensively around this single aesthetic feature more than any other, the strait back.



https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2017/ ... s-missing/

“So this guy was trying to tell me that we have no head movement in Wing Chun. Not just bobbing and weaving” he clarified “but that we can literally never move our heads.”

“So he thinks we stand there and get punched in the face?” I asked incredulously.

“Pretty much. I told him to take a closer look at the forms.”
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby Bob on Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:39 am

Praying mantis - underrated - intensive training beyond forms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n85hLOuNiAo

Published on Apr 11, 2006
Tanglang hand-to-hand combat training performed by Yuri Babin's disciples in Moscow, Russia.
Yuri Babin is the first disciple of Ilya Profatilov.










http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/sho ... f-a-mantis
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby willie on Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:57 am

I liked Robs first video and the mantis stuff.
Combine them both = relaxed, effortless, technique.
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:38 am

Bob wrote:Praying mantis - underrated - intensive training beyond forms



Nice clips.

Mantis is actually one of the CMA styles that, IMO, can be applied "as it is" -- meaning the movements found in the forms can be pretty much directly used in combat with little to no discrepancy between form practice and application. Tongbei is another system that comes to mind which also has this characteristic.
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