Missing link, from form to application

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby Overlord on Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:32 am

rojcewiczj wrote:It seems to me that the most important missing link between practicing the form and applying those movements against a resisting opponent is the inclusion of head movement. When I say head movement, I mean the movement of the entire central axis via the head. I feel that the most important function of form practice is the separation of the central axis from the rest of the bodies movements, the ability to move the body freely around the central axis without tossing that axis. However, without the ability to adjust that axis to the appropriate position and angle during combat, ones central axis is easily destroyed via pushing/pulling and face punching. It seems to me that some teachers hide the fact that they move their axis to many different angles during combat and almost never stand strait. I would actually go so far to say that most of the skill in combat is in how to appropriately angle and adjust your central axis, and that a posture that is vertically totally strait is a state without intention for fighting, and can only be called wuji. Until one can intentionally and knowingly adjust the angle of the central axis to appropriately neutralize and avoid incoming force then their form remains just for show. Imagine someone entering the boxing ring without any head movement, and we see someone destined to be knocked out. In yet, the traditional martial arts circle seems to revolve defensively around this single aesthetic feature more than any other, the strait back.


In Tongbei 通備 school, we called it 項桿勁、藏頭勢
In Xingyi it’s called 頭打落意隨足走
In Shuaijiao it’s called 變臉
There are degrees of head movement and very mobile
Cheers,
Last edited by Overlord on Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby thepoeticedda on Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:18 am

Keep in mind too that many of the old school chinese martial arts were more self-defense "hit once or twice then get out of town" mentality rather then an arena fight. So a lot of the head movement and other dodging aspects were things done once as part of the combination more than as a separate skill to train while hanging out in a boxing pocket

He Jinbao here moves of line plenty of times in his applications but he's not weaving in the sense that boxers need to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6mw-yu ... eBvVdlgA-v

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1M-DrNcqSY
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby marvin8 on Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:41 am

thepoeticedda wrote:Keep in mind too that many of the old school chinese martial arts were more self-defense "hit once or twice then get out of town" mentality rather then an arena fight. So a lot of the head movement and other dodging aspects were things done once as part of the combination more than as a separate skill to train while hanging out in a boxing pocket

He Jinbao here moves of line plenty of times in his applications but he's not weaving in the sense that boxers need to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6mw-yu ... eBvVdlgA-v

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1M-DrNcqSY

However, the opponents react differently in each video.

One video is a demonstration; the other is a real fight. In one video, the opponent freezes and arm does not retract; the other opponent is moving, punching and retracting his arm.
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby willie on Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:47 am

[quote="thepoeticedda"] old school chinese martial arts

He Jinbao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6mw-yu ... eBvVdlgA-v

1. Some very nice clips on that channel.
2. This is the path that taiji players should be going.

limit push hand time and get into the app's in taijiquan, You won't regret it.
Last edited by willie on Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby thepoeticedda on Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:39 am

Hahaha I'm aware of that. Just pointing out that in the bagua video, the techniques are a little like "entries" for one or two stopping strikes/ a fast throw/ a break/ a push. If you're in an extended fight like lomachenko is then your not doing so hot.
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby willie on Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:47 pm

thepoeticedda wrote:Hahaha I'm aware of that. Just pointing out that in the bagua video, the techniques are a little like "entries" for one or two stopping strikes/ a fast throw/ a break/ a push. If you're in an extended fight like lomachenko is then your not doing so hot.

Haha back...I'm just wondering what you base your theories on?
Last edited by willie on Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby thepoeticedda on Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:24 pm

(hope my hahaha's are seen as nice friendly banter and not mocking, apologies if that got confused)

Okay so I'm new to bagua, I'm definitely more familiar with taiji and longfist styles, but it makes a lot of since based on what I've read and seen.

If we go back to the 48 methods of Bagua (note, theres some dispute about if Dong Haichuan himself or one of the early practitioners wrote them but anyway)

https://www.internalartsinternational.c ... gua-zhang/

The ones I think relevant to this discussion are

28 - you want to confuse them, but instead of doing a bunch of feints and tricks you should blind them while moving in on angles

31 - Blocking and moving to the side are good but only if you stay close enough to still attack (which is definitely closest to op's point)

33 - Again, no feints. Keep attacking and pressing in til you get them

46 - Don't "capture" one opponent, striking and getting out is better. I'm not sure on the exact usage of capture, but note that chi na techniques are still in bagua, so it seems like it's most about not getting too entangled with one opponent. bagua chi na https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0BLSm8F48w


These together build an art that to me reads like it wants very fast, very "overwheling" fight with an emphasis on eye/vital point strikes and strongly recommends against the feints common and needed in dueling
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby willie on Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:17 pm

thepoeticedda wrote:(hope my hahaha's are seen as nice friendly banter and not mocking, apologies if that got confused)

Okay so I'm new to bagua, I'm definitely more familiar with taiji and longfist styles, but it makes a lot of since based on what I've read and seen.

I'm not offended. Of the bagua guys that I met so far, only one had appreciable skill. he is actually one of hejinbao's senior students. I never personally trained with him. it was one of my friends from MMA who ran into him and started training with him and said that he was surprised how much power that he had. The reason why I said what I said in relation to the video was because my sifu teaches taijii just like hejinbao teacher bagua. Except we use a lot more power
Last edited by willie on Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:44 am

Think that I’ve missed that clip. What I appreciate with HJB Yin Bagua is that they practice to break through a very strong, solid structure. They often practice with both attacker using a very solid shenfa/structure. The practitioners I’ve got to know can be very difficult to handle if you approach them in a pure technical manner and use strength. Against them th leverage, angles, alignment of applying force etc must all be perfect. Very hard to break through and they practice to break through a strong defence. What they do is a great example of form to application. As when they practice the forms and drills of their Lion system all of what they do is to build a very strong, solid and highly functional structure. It all seems very genuine, very thought out and much different from everything else I’ve practiced that has been labelled Bagua. ...Much too different though...
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby thepoeticedda on Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:07 am

(glad my hahahas are coming off correctly :D )

But yeah, that's awesome! Not the state of current bagua but the fact that both of you two are familiar with HJB's students, which are probably about as legit as it gets lol. Hopefully I can take this to my own bagua practice to make sure I'm learning a martial art and not just walking in pretty circles
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:28 am

I think, at its most simple, Chinese martial art application is like two deer meeting antlers. Like a Yi quan tui shou, the arms are like living horns which control engagement, while the head, steers the power through the entire body.
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Re: Missing link, from form to application

Postby willie on Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:55 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:It seems to me that the most important missing link between practicing the form and applying those movements against a resisting opponent is the inclusion of head movement. When I say head movement, I mean the movement of the entire central axis via the head. I feel that the most important function of form practice is the separation of the central axis from the rest of the bodies movements, the ability to move the body freely around the central axis without tossing that axis. However, without the ability to adjust that axis to the appropriate position and angle during combat, ones central axis is easily destroyed via pushing/pulling and face punching. It seems to me that some teachers hide the fact that they move their axis to many different angles during combat and almost never stand strait. I would actually go so far to say that most of the skill in combat is in how to appropriately angle and adjust your central axis, and that a posture that is vertically totally strait is a state without intention for fighting, and can only be called wuji. Until one can intentionally and knowingly adjust the angle of the central axis to appropriately neutralize and avoid incoming force then their form remains just for show. Imagine someone entering the boxing ring without any head movement, and we see someone destined to be knocked out. In yet, the traditional martial arts circle seems to revolve defensively around this single aesthetic feature more than any other, the strait back.

The mistake that you made in this post is to bring up boxing. You should just get that out of your head and stop comparing what you're doing to what anyone else is doing.
As for the rest of the post, it's not bad. A lot of the applications require exactly what you're stating. The missing link however might be the fact that mostly everyone doing these Arts is too caught up in free style Push Hands. They never really learn the applications and if they do, they never really learn them to the point where they could use them in actual combat. This is the major problem. Push Hands is fun, it's easy to do.
So then the next phase after learning the applications is to learn how to apply them in a changing environment under load. I would say that one of the most important parts to understanding applications is that the applications themselves are primarily made out of arcs. So now that we have gotten that far, look at the way that people interact with Push Hands. Most of the time the practitioners start off with at least one or two simple circles correct? Try to transform that Arc into the lead on beginning Arc of an application instead of completing the circle.
Then either complete the application which is usually just an arc or try to transition into other applications right on top of it
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