Purpose of the Tantien

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:21 pm

willie wrote:
Bao wrote: There are too many useful CMA skills that one can spend his life time to develop. Dantian rotation is not in that list.

Apparently somebody has misguided you as a child. Dantian rotation is probably more important than all of the Yang style forms and applications combined.


It was JW who wrote that. I merely asked him if he thought that DT rotation was important or not. Please lecture him instead.

You should really seek New Horizons and accept Chen as the father art of all taichi.


Chen style is definitely not the father of tai chi and the modern Chen style expression is nowhere close to old Chen boxing. Chen wanting collected many different methods and created his own forms but nothing that was organized into a “style”. What Chen Wangting did was of outmost importance for what is called tai chi today, but he didn’t invent anything knew that can not be found in the arts he practiced.

Edit: and FYI, I do admire Chen style’s strong focus on dantian coordination and silk reeling.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby charles on Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:23 pm

voidisyinyang wrote:Accordingly, this Lower Tan Tien wrong message of “below the navel”...


If one has put in the necessary work, one knows, from first hand experience where it is located. If one hasn't, it doesn't really matter where one says it is or isn't, sort of like debating what sort of windows to put in your summer home on Mars.

The "dan tian" that is often referred to in Taijiquan practice - such as "rotation" et al - is simply the "stuff" of the abdomen. That is different from the "dan tian"/energy centre of TCM and Taoist alchemy, etc. Those who practice both will likely see overlap and inter-relation.
Last edited by charles on Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:34 pm

charles wrote:If one has put in the necessary work, one knows, from first hand experience where it is located. If one hasn't, it doesn't really matter where one says it is or isn't, sort of like debating what sort of windows to put in your summer home on Mars.


Exactly. +1
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:20 pm

Bao wrote:
willie wrote:
Bao wrote: There are too many useful CMA skills that one can spend his life time to develop. Dantian rotation is not in that list.

Apparently somebody has misguided you as a child. Dantian rotation is probably more important than all of the Yang style forms and applications combined.


It was JW who wrote that. I merely asked him if he thought that DT rotation was important or not. Please lecture him instead.

You should really seek New Horizons and accept Chen as the father art of all taichi.


Chen style is definitely not the father of tai chi and the modern Chen style expression is nowhere close to old Chen boxing. Chen wanting collected many different methods and created his own forms but nothing that was organized into a “style”. What Chen Wangting did was of outmost importance for what is called tai chi today, but he didn’t invent anything knew that can not be found in the arts he practiced.

Edit: and FYI, I do admire Chen style’s strong focus on dantian coordination and silk reeling.

I see, apparently somebody had quoted it incorrectly because it appears that you said that. If John had said that well that's his own foolishness and un-doing.

For the rest, what you may not realize is that I was very much into Yang Style. I sounded exactly the same as the rest of Yang stylists . What I have found out is that yang style, is like going to kindergarten in comparison. I no longer practice yang Style. just as if you would take training wheels off of a bicycle and throw them away.
Last edited by willie on Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby charles on Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:18 pm

Bao wrote:Chen style is definitely not the father of tai chi and the modern Chen style expression is nowhere close to old Chen boxing.


willie wrote:What I have found out is that yang style, is like going to kindergarten in comparison.


The "style wars" get old.

I've met very skilled individuals in Yang style, Wu style and Chen style. I've also met many who were not skilled in Yang style, Wu style and Chen style. The "styles", themselves, are inherently neither good nor bad, it is the individual practitioners who are. If your assessment is that Yang style is like kindergarten, it seems that you haven't met more skilled practitioners of that style. In any of the styles, highly skilled individuals are few and far between.

What is the "old" Chen boxing "expression" and how do you know that the "modern" expression is nowhere close to it? Like Yang style, there is huge variation in what people practice under the umbrella of "Chen style". Might just be that there still is a faction practicing with "old" expression. Seems like a similar paint-it-all-with-one-brush-stroke statement as "Yang style is kindergarten". Clearly, a lot of Yang style practitioners do practice - and teach - at a kindergarten level, just as many Chen style practitioners practice a "modern" expression. Do sweeping generalities really further and improve discussion?
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby everything on Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:51 pm

Sun Lutang went into length about "internal", dantian (translated as "elixir field" here), internal energy, the relationship between martial arts and Daoist arts, etc..

I have practiced boxing arts since my youth. I had heard every teacher say that these boxing arts are Daoist arts. I was doubtful whenever I heard this until I had progressed to training the hidden energy. Hardness and softness had merged into one, movement felt miraculous, and it became spontaneous and natural.
Discussing it with my fellow students, we each knew something about it. However, once I had moved on to training the neutral energy, the quality of discussion about my new internal condition had changed. Those who understood the experience were often less willing to talk about it, and those who knew nothing about it would not stop talking about it. For that reason, I have put pen to paper in order to reveal it to my fellows. For those of you who have passed through to such a condition, by sharing with each other we can mutually achieve perfection.
When I trained to develop the neutral energy, at the finish of each day’s practice of postures I would stand straight and think of my spirit and energy settling. Each time, I felt something down in my root chakra (also called the Yin Jiao acupoint). [Yin Jiao means “where the passive energy is quickened”. This is again still the same place as Hui Yin, meaning similarly “where the passive energy gathers”. There are three names for the same place because of three traditions: in Chinese medicine it is called Hui Yin (“Gathering Place of the Passive”), Daoists named it Yin Jiao (“Passive Quickened”), and Buddhists named it Hai Di (“Under the Sea”).] It was like a plant sprouting, and in the beginning I did not pay it much attention.
In my daily practice, there were times when the sensation would be there, other times when I felt nothing at all. In the course of time, there were occasions when the sensation lasted very long, as well as other times in which there was again no sensation. Gradually, once in the finishing posture and thinking on settling, it seemed like it was there but on the verge of going away. I thought of what the Elixir Book says about seated meditation: “Your true active aspect activates.” I made use of this idea, which to elixirists is a matter of movement within stillness.
Among those who practice seated meditation, there are a great many who understand the idea of seeking movement within stillness. In the case of boxing arts, what is sought is stillness within movement, but I am not sure how that can be communicated. I also thought upon this phrase from the Boxing Classics: “Always the exercise is to be maintained and never allowed to slip away.” I trained every day, never skipping a day.
Eventually in the training, from the moment I was in the finishing posture my whole body went into a condition of emptiness. My true active aspect would also activate, but would be on the verge of going away. Such a state is what Liu Huayang meant by “returning to a sense of the true primordial state”. I became aware of my body’s smallest movement, and I dared not to move at all, for if I moved it would go away.
I thought if I returned to the method in the boxing, it would adjust the situation. My intention within was of sinking naturalness down to my elixir field, while underneath also using an intention of naturalness to lift up my rectum. The idea inside and out was now just like when practicing the boxing. Then the moment my intention focused on my elixir field, the active aspect promptly shrank in upward and resprouted there. My whole body was now pleasantly warm and stayed so continuously. [In short, what Sun had discovered here is the simple but crucial principle that if you are sticking your butt out, your energy will seem to leak away, but if you slightly tuck your tailbone in, you will feel full of power.]
I did not yet know about the principle of rotating the dharma wheel, but it was all going on there within my elixir field, like two things in a state of competing with each other. [A dharma wheel rotation is the active energy moving up the Du meridian in the back and the passive energy moving down the Ren meridian in front, and the elixir field is where the exchange of passive and active takes place.] Then after four or five hours like that, finally they were at peace.
It seemed to me that the cause of such stillness was that from when I was practicing the boxing, the essential breath had remained in my elixir field. Even when I was not practicing, despite even the breathing of conversation, the true breath within was not hindered at all. Indeed I was not trying to deliberately cause such an effect, but there was no moment when it was not so. Zhuangzi said [Zhuangzi, chapter 6]: “An authentic man breathes with his heels.” This is essentially the idea, and this engine of there being breath without my mind being on the breath drove the activity of the active aspect to be absorbed and to smoothly reach to every part of my body.
I thereafter repeated the process as before, again rousing my elixir field, again going through my practice routine of boxing postures. With my inside and outside always a single continuum, I slowly and leisurely practiced, not allowing the slightest bit of unevenness anywhere. As I practiced, within and to my extremities it was harmonious, a continuous emptiness, and then the situation once I was standing in the finishing posture was no different from before.
There were times when I would go through my practice routine and then feel nothing, times when I would go through my routine twice and still feel nothing. But subsequently when there was something happening, I would again lift it to my elixir field and then use the boxing art’s internal breathing to rotate the dharma wheel, my intention focusing on my elixir field.
Breathing mindfully, I rotated the wheel along its course from my tailbone, to my spine, to my head, to my headtop, and then back down, same as in seated meditation practice, back down to my elixir field. At times I could do only two or three rotations and then the feeling would stop, at times only three or four rotations and then the feeling would stop. The degree of my intent was matched in both cases, the amount of rotations I could manage and the amount of boxing practice I had put in.
Later when I was not practicing, whether I was just sitting, standing, or walking, inside I was still using the breathing of the boxing practice. My body while walking could still process it. Later on it happened even when I was sleeping deeply. There would be a sudden stirring within, which immediately woke me. I again used the breathing from practicing the boxing to absorb it. I then slept soundly, and inside there was no movement. Inside and out, my whole body to its extremities suddenly felt like a void. My whole body was as harmoniously contented as if I was taking a bath.
Sometimes when this situation happened in my sleep, I was able in my dream to mindfully breathe and thereby absorb it. After I woke up, I was aware that it had happened and had been dealt with in my dream.
After practicing the boxing, I slept soundly and there was stillness within. Eventually I only had to fall asleep for my inside and out to suddenly slip into a period of emptiness. During the day, whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, my limbs also experienced periods of such emptiness, and the sensation within my body was extraordinarily comfortable. Every evening, I practiced the boxing, and then while I was asleep in the night, my body often slipped into a state of emptiness. Although if I did not practice in the evening, the emptiness during sleep would occur less regularly.
Later on I understood that elixirism has an energy which dispels ailments. My own personal experiences and observations of internal and external conditions were that typical human problems become inconsequential, all illnesses are cast off, and vitality is increased. After doing seated meditation in this way and practicing the boxing in this way, I finally understood that boxing arts and elixirism share the same principles.
This has been my personal experience, internal and external, of practicing boxing arts. I have written it down for the purpose of further clarifying for my comrades.


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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby chimerical tortoise on Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:32 pm

Interloper wrote:All other discussion is a wild goose chase if you truly want to discuss the role of the dantian in internal martial arts -- which is what this forum is for.


QFT

No !Kung is known to do kung fu.
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby marvin8 on Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:16 pm

charles wrote:
Bao wrote:Chen style is definitely not the father of tai chi and the modern Chen style expression is nowhere close to old Chen boxing.


willie wrote:What I have found out is that yang style, is like going to kindergarten in comparison.


The "style wars" get old.

I've met very skilled individuals in Yang style, Wu style and Chen style. I've also met many who were not skilled in Yang style, Wu style and Chen style. The "styles", themselves, are inherently neither good nor bad, it is the individual practitioners who are. If your assessment is that Yang style is like kindergarten, it seems that you haven't met more skilled practitioners of that style. In any of the styles, highly skilled individuals are few and far between.

What is the "old" Chen boxing "expression" and how do you know that the "modern" expression is nowhere close to it? Like Yang style, there is huge variation in what people practice under the umbrella of "Chen style". Might just be that there still is a faction practicing with "old" expression. Seems like a similar paint-it-all-with-one-brush-stroke statement as "Yang style is kindergarten". Clearly, a lot of Yang style practitioners do practice - and teach - at a kindergarten level, just as many Chen style practitioners practice a "modern" expression. Do sweeping generalities really further and improve discussion?

From Tai Chi Interview – Chen Zhenglei (willie's lineage), https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/t ... -zhenglei/
Ronnie Robinson wrote:Do you think it’s important for Tai Chi Chuan practitioners to have an awareness of the energy system and the acupoints and meridians etc.?

You needn’t think of these things. If your neiqi (internal energy) isn’t full, then however much you think about it or read about it won’t be of any use. The practice of Tai Chi Chuan will open up all the passages and meridians in the body. It is not important to have knowledge of where in the body this will happen because it will happen naturally, if you practice properly. If you just read about it, you will have knowledge of where, but without proper practice it will never happen.

Can you get the same benefits from practising other styles like the Yang style for example?

Yes. As long as the teacher has the knowledge to help you to practice the principles properly. In Yang style there are also people who know the right way and those who don’t. There are thousands of people who practise, only few who will attain the art. It is not so easy to reach these (high) levels.

There are three things which are important to developing good Tai Chi Chuan:-Teacher, talent and transmission. First, you need to have a good teacher, someone who is clear. Second, is having talent, the intelligence to absorb and understand the information and the ability to imitate well. Finally there is hard, diligent practise, a willingness to undergo the pain and toil of practise.
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:01 am

marvin8 wrote:From Tai Chi Interview – Chen Zhenglei (willie's lineage),

Marvin I've decided to shorten your post and get right to the root of why you posted it in the first place. You think that I'm being unfair? But the truth is, no I am not being unfair at all. I am simply countering the misinformation that has been put out by hundreds or even thousands of Yang style teachers concerning Chen. What you fail to realize is that there are chen style teachers who like to teach Yang style as a precursor to Chen Style. Once the person gets going smoothly in Chen, yang is thrown away. Now why would some Masters choose to do this? Because Yang Style is much easier to learn. So as not to discourage newcomers from learning Chen Style, it seemed to be the perfect choice because yang Style is just a watered-down version of Chen Style.
Also, it seems that you have a real talent for research. so I'm pretty sure that there is information about this online we're even Masters who teach in Chen Village choose to teach Yang Style as a precursor to Chen Style. Then yang style is discarded.
Last edited by willie on Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Ron Panunto on Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:21 am

willie wrote: yang Style is just a watered-down version of Chen Style.


I rather think of Yang as a "simplified" version of Chen. However, since there are a lot of really good Yang stylists, it is apparent that the simplification process has not hurt the art, in fact, it has opened up the art to a lot of practitioners who aren't physically fit enough to practice Chen. I have practiced both Yang and Chen for the past 50 years or so, and I enjoy them both. I would never "discard" my Yang forms as they provide a different, but enjoyable, release from the rigors of Chen.
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby charles on Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:33 am

willie wrote: You think that I'm being unfair?


I don't think "fairness" enters into it. You are reporting your opinions based upon your experience. However, you seem to ignore the opinions of others, based upon their experience, that are contrary to yours.

I am simply countering the misinformation that has been put out by hundreds or even thousands of Yang style teachers concerning Chen.


Why is it important to you to counter this "misinformation"?

What you fail to realize is that there are chen style teachers who like to teach Yang style as a precursor to Chen Style. Once the person gets going smoothly in Chen, yang is thrown away. Now why would some Masters choose to do this?


I know a well-ranked Baji practitioner who uses Chen style as a precursor to Baji. Then he discards the Chen practice. Now why would he choose to do this?

Because Yang Style is much easier to learn.


My experience is that Yang style is much more difficult to learn. The reason is that the actions are performed small. That makes it difficult for beginners to see what is going on and difficult for them to feel/experience. Large-movement Chen is much easier to teach to beginners and easier for them to grasp. If taught well.

... yang Style is just a watered-down version of Chen Style.


I understand that that has been your experience of it. However, no matter how many times you repeat it, that doesn't make it true. There is a lot of watered-down Yang style being taught, just as there is a lot of watered-down Chen style being taught. That does't make either just a watered-down version of the other: it makes it just badly taught.

Also, it seems that you have a real talent for research. so I'm pretty sure that there is information about this online we're even Masters who teach in Chen Village choose to teach Yang Style as a precursor to Chen Style. Then yang style is discarded.


First I've heard that. Can you name anyone in Chen Village who does that now or has done that in the past?
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:30 am

charles wrote:
willie wrote: You think that I'm being unfair?


I don't think "fairness" enters into it. You are reporting your opinions based upon your experience. However, you seem to ignore the opinions of others, based upon their experience, that are contrary to yours.

I am simply countering the misinformation that has been put out by hundreds or even thousands of Yang style teachers concerning Chen.


Why is it important to you to counter this "misinformation"?

What you fail to realize is that there are chen style teachers who like to teach Yang style as a precursor to Chen Style. Once the person gets going smoothly in Chen, yang is thrown away. Now why would some Masters choose to do this?


I know a well-ranked Baji practitioner who uses Chen style as a precursor to Baji. Then he discards the Chen practice. Now why would he choose to do this?

Because Yang Style is much easier to learn.


My experience is that Yang style is much more difficult to learn. The reason is that the actions are performed small. That makes it difficult for beginners to see what is going on and difficult for them to feel/experience. Large-movement Chen is much easier to teach to beginners and easier for them to grasp. If taught well.

... yang Style is just a watered-down version of Chen Style.


I understand that that has been your experience of it. However, no matter how many times you repeat it, that doesn't make it true. There is a lot of watered-down Yang style being taught, just as there is a lot of watered-down Chen style being taught. That does't make either just a watered-down version of the other: it makes it just badly taught.

Also, it seems that you have a real talent for research. so I'm pretty sure that there is information about this online we're even Masters who teach in Chen Village choose to teach Yang Style as a precursor to Chen Style. Then yang style is discarded.


First I've heard that. Can you name anyone in Chen Village who does that now or has done that in the past?

Charles it's always a pleasant day when you drop in.
First off, I do not ignore what other people say, I use the best of my abilities and Judgment of what I have seen in the past to form an opinion.
Second. If everybody listened to the Yang stylist who are constantly bad mouthing Chen style without ever even being exposed to it. Then none of the newcomers who aren't aware of the truth would form the same opinion without any factual basis to it.
On to your next point. My teachers first teacher Lu ping had brought over a very high level highly respected baji player and introduced him into the American cash machine if you know what I mean. The guy was a big rough tough Chinese dude who was also very arrogant. Even though my teachers teacher had brought him over here he was disrespectful to my teacher teacher as well. Lu ping defeated him.
But in doing so baji was incorporated into lu pings Arsenal. Most likely because baji is quite good. And yes I have the name of that baji player and no I'm not going to release that name.
I think that I know the name of the Chen style master who was teaching yang style like that. But I'm not going to release his name either.
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Trick on Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:17 am

willie wrote:What you fail to realize is that there are chen style teachers who like to teach Yang style as a precursor to Chen Style. Once the person gets going smoothly in Chen, yang is thrown away. Now why would some Masters choose to do this? .

It's not thrown away, after the exquisiteness of YTQ is achieved the work of incorporating it into the rougher CTQ begin......Just a nagging theory 8-) ......Actually I have seen this way of teaching(kind of) but only in "WuShu'ist" schools that teach competition forms..but of course no forms are thrown away
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:12 pm

Trick wrote:
willie wrote:What you fail to realize is that there are chen style teachers who like to teach Yang style as a precursor to Chen Style. Once the person gets going smoothly in Chen, yang is thrown away. Now why would some Masters choose to do this? .

It's not thrown away, after the exquisiteness of YTQ is achieved the work of incorporating it into the rougher CTQ begin......Just a nagging theory 8-) ......Actually I have seen this way of teaching(kind of) but only in "WuShu'ist" schools that teach competition forms..but of course no forms are thrown away

Hi trick. Actually that's not entirely true because yes I threw away my yang and Wudang style forms. There is no need for me to pursue them any further because Chen Style has way better material and it is already too hard on me to maintain what I already have. My sifu also trained Yang Style. He also does not entertain it anymore.
I liked my yang style and my Wudang stuff. It was paid for with both good money and a lot of effort over many years. But to maintain everything would be nearly impossible as it would consume my entire life. So choices have to be made.
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Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby voidisyinyang on Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:24 am



Now if your talking about physical movements, ...If all your doing is physical movements, then there is a limit to how much qi you're going to generate, anyway.


quantum biology confirms the secrets of the Lower Tan T'ien:

The gastrointestinal-brain axis in humans as an evolutionary advance of the root-leaf axis in plants: A hypothesis linking quantum effects of light on serotonin and auxin


https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _and_auxin

full free read, 2018 March Professor jack Tuszinski, et. al.
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