Purpose of the Tantien

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby voidisyinyang on Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:24 pm

Bill wrote:Randi never said that he is a scientist. He is a professional magician who exposes psychic frauds and does a fine job of it.

Sad to see you're some sort of a homophobe. Could you be projecting your own self hatred onto Randi?

IMO you are free to believe in what ever you want, but I enjoy keeping my friends here informed on frauds who use tricks to fool the public.


Bill are those really the only "options" - that James Randi's roommate-lover and James randi committed fraud that they covered up? Or that I am a homophobe? haha.

First of all - to train the tan t'ien requires celibacy! That means no ejaculation. Homosexuality is by definition "ejaculation squared" so I think that rules out James Randi as any sort of objective reference regarding tan t'ien training. Just because he searches out people to harass as his victims - that doesn't mean that qi energy is fake. haha. Unless people have serious logical skills lacking.

It is kind of like the anthropologist who wrote a text book on how Late Mayan Civilization was based on pederasty and he complained that homosexual anthropologists were promoting this culture of pederasty as good thing! When in fact the young males are targeted as rape victims and so this anthropologist was emphasizing the need for non-homosexual anthropologists to stop promoting pederasty of the Late Mayan Civilization and start recognizing it for what it is - ejaculation addiction as sex abuse and violence. The pederasty spread from the Aztecs into the Late Mayan civilization. The early mayan culture did not practice homosexuality.

Or similarly we can consider the original human culture - the San Bushmen. I have corresponded with Dr. Elizabeth Marshall Thomas who was one of the few people to live with an uncontacted San Bushmen tribe in the 1950s. All modern humans come from the San Bushmen culture and yet as she detailed - they not only did not practice homosexuality, they did not even know what homosexuality was!! Also none of the San Bushmen males masturbated. And guess what? The whole San Bushmen culture was based on training the tan t'ien energy! Only they call it N/om. haha.

So since science can find no genetic cause of homosexuality and it definitely was not even known in the original human culture that we all comes from - we are all direct cousins just 7000 generations back - even though science ignores this empirical fact - then obviously homosexuality is a late aberration. Again celibacy is required for any real tan t'ien training and the original human culture trained their tan t'ien as N/om energy and did not even know what homosexuality was!! Hilarious.

So go ahead and accuse me of homophobia. haha. How could the original human culture be homophobic when they're whole culture was based on training the males in "staying power" through celibacy tan t'ien training - called Tshoma? There has to be boiling heat in the pit of the stomach. You trance dance for a month, while fasting, with no contact with any females. You visualize fire at the pit of the stomach, at the base of the spine. This is done once a year. This ionizes the neurohormones into N/om energy that is then sent out of the eyes and hands. Since the original human culture had no warfare - the energy was used to heal the females. haha.

Also the Pygmy - the 2nd oldest human culture - did not know what homosexuality was nor did the males practice masturbation and they have the similar trance dance energy training. It is like Tai Chi.

So the N/om training is documented going back to 70,000 years ago. Did homosexuality crop up much later? Apparently but you put a bunch of rats in a cage (i.e. settled village states with farming starting 10,000 years ago) and they also turn homosexual. haha. Does it go against the tan t'ien training? Yes of course.

Sorry if any of that offends you - that is just the empirical truth about homosexuality and tan t'ien training. haha.
voidisyinyang
Anjing
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:46 am

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:55 pm

Holy Christ!
Guys, cool your jets. Dantian training has absolutely nothing to do with anything that you guys have mentioned at all. It just took 20 minutes trying to explain to my girlfriend why you guys are even entertaining such foolishness.
Last edited by willie on Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
willie

 

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Bill on Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:05 pm

Good luck in your practice.
It hurts when I Pi
User avatar
Bill
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4915
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby chimerical tortoise on Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:22 pm

Hi voidisyang,

Anthropologist here. With all due respect you're selectively interpreting and cherry picking your points here... how is there an "THE original human culture"? I'm not a biological anthropologist and sure if you take the RAO (Recent Out of Africa) model then yes, the 'first' human was probably where the modern-day San live now (what about the lively Original Affluent Society debate re: hunter-gatherers and egalitarianism in anthropology?), but how does that even matter when the forum is talking about Chinese martial arts practice?

What does the Late Mayan civilisation have to do with the purpose of dantien? Or the Pygmy? (Which is a bit of an offensive term these days and can refer to quite a few very different groups worldwide - e.g. various peoples of Central Africa, Australia, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, India, Papua New Guinea, Brazil... and some do have culturally acceptable homosexual practices...)

You are trying to create your own narrative here based of what evidence suits you but there is no real relation between all of these points other than what similarities you choose to see. There is no "empirical truth" that you are presenting here. Science might not find a "genetic cause of homosexuality" (a phrase where subsequent discussion usually starts to run towards eugenics and shitty science to be honest) but neither is there a "genetic cause of kung fu practice" and that doesn't necessarily mean kung fu practice is a "late aberration"... although I'm sure some people consider it to be!

I thought this was a martial arts forum? anyhow good luck in your training, but please understand that as a whole, your perspective is not at all grounded in anthropology or science...
Last edited by chimerical tortoise on Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
chimerical tortoise
Huajing
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:31 pm

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby voidisyinyang on Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:15 pm

chimerical tortoise wrote:Hi voidisyang,

There is no "empirical truth" that you are presenting here.

"Interestingly, the Ju/wasi took no position on homosexuality, which seemed unknown. Researchers of other hunter-gatherer societies have also found an absence of homosexuality. Perhaps the Old Way, with its arduous lifestyle, does not transmit this quality."
That's from Elizabeth Marshall Thomas' last book on the Khoisan – the Old Way. And from her first book – The Harmless People – the first on the Khoisan, after extensive anthropology work:

Quote
"Khoisan believe that it harms a girl terribly to be possessed before she is mature. It might even drive her mad. Khoisan have no real solution to this, as there are no prostitutes and only in a few bands are there promiscuous women. Homosexuality is not permitted either; the young men just have to get used to being tempted constantly but never gratified."


Is the strong cultural focus on sex as a reproductive tool the reason masturbation and homosexual practices seem to be virtually unknown among the Aka and Ngandu? That isn't clear. But the Hewletts did find that their informants -- whom they knew well from years of field work -- "were not aware of these practices, did not have terms for them," and, in the case of the Aka, had a hard time even understanding about what the researchers were asking when they asked about homosexual behaviors.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... st/265849/
So there's your empirical evidence that you claim I did not have. haha.

Now let's stay focused on the thread. I posted a vid on serious tan t'ien training. Anyone interested in commenting on it except to claim that the daughter of the grandmaster is a fake? haha.

I was accused of being homophobic in relation to a fake dude using fraud with his bias against tan t'ien training that relies on celibacy! Now you are accusing me of not having any empirical evidence. So before people try to censor me then at least let me present the empirical evidence that you wrongly claim I don't have. haha.

First of all have you read the book Boiling Energy by Dr. Richard Katz? http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php? ... nt=reviews

Secondly genetically - it's not disputed that we all come from the original human culture, the San Bushmen. Yes I know that some anthropologists like to call them Khoi even though that term is derogatory to the San Bushmen. haha. But let's not get caught up on semantics shall we?

So that book Boiling Energy is about the original tan t'ien training that all males were required to train in. That means at puberty, before marriage, with no masturbation and no homosexuality - all the males went off for a month of fasting and trance dancing to create the N/om energy. How can you be an anthropologist yet not know about the original human culture from before 70,000 BCE? haha.

The Way of the Bushman: Spiritual Teachings as told by the Elders

N/um, Change, and Social Work
by Drs. Bradford and Hillary Keeney pdf

Megan Biesele,

Women like meat: the folklore and foraging ideology of the Kalahari Ju/’Hoan

(Witwatersrand University Press, 1993).

Mathias Georg Guenther,

Tricksters and trancers: bushman religion and society

(Indiana University Press, 1999).

Elizabeth Marshall Thomas,

The harmless people

(Random House, Inc., 1989) and

Rupert Isaacson,

The Healing Land: The Khoisan and the Kalahari Desert

(Grove Press, 2004).

Richard Katz,

Boiling energy: community healing among the Kalahari Kung

(Harvard University Press, 1984).

Marjorie Shostak,

Nisa: the life and words of a !Kung woman


(Harvard University Press, 2000).

the Bushmen book Healing Makes Our Hearts Happy.

The Past and Future of !Kung Ethnography: Critical Reflections and Symbolic Perspectives. Essays in Honour of
Lorna Marshall


, edited by Megan Biesele, with Robert Gordon and Richard Lee

Trance Cure of the !Kung Bushmen pdf

by Richard Lee

Some healers try to hoard n/um

Education for Transcendence
- Richard Katz pdf

The trance dance training is from before human language had split into different dialects!

“There are things about the antiquity of the Bushmen’s culture that we didn’t know. A musicologist found very important music which was used at a woman’s first menarche called ‘elan music’ (honoring the fat-rich antelope). This ‘elan music’ was also present in other language groups of other Bushmen language groups and also the noun-less speakers who are not exactly Bushmen but they’re related. This means that way back before these groups diverged, somebody invented or composed (this) music and then they took it with them.”


Interview with Elizabeth Marshall Thomas, Paula Gordon Show (Peterborough, New Hampshire, July 19, 2008).

As to where the San Bushmen lived - yes of course it was much more widespread. The Sandawe are the oldest Bushmen tribe and originally lived in Ethiopia but now live in Tanzania.
voidisyinyang
Anjing
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:46 am

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby charles on Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:54 pm

willie wrote:Holy Christ!
Guys, cool your jets. Dantian training has absolutely nothing to do with anything that you guys have mentioned at all. It just took 20 minutes trying to explain to my girlfriend why you guys are even entertaining such foolishness.


And you wondered why I wasn't all too interested in entering into this discussion. ;)
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1438
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:40 pm

charles wrote:
willie wrote:Holy Christ!
Guys, cool your jets. Dantian training has absolutely nothing to do with anything that you guys have mentioned at all. It just took 20 minutes trying to explain to my girlfriend why you guys are even entertaining such foolishness.


And you wondered why I wasn't all too interested in entering into this discussion. ;)

Yeah but it seems to be the only way to get the rats to come out of the walls.
willie

 

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Interloper on Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:43 pm

Speaking from a practical-applied martial arts perspective, dantian has nothing at all to do with anything esoteric, philosophical, sexual or religious. It is strictly about bio-mechanical movement for the purpose of generating power and maintaining structural stability of the body under martial duress (i.e. in combat, in motion).

As was shown in the videos earlier in the thread, there are very specific muscles and connective tissues that practitioners learn to identify/feel, and willfully activate to create different tensions which are exploited in the generation of force and in working in tandem with the mingmen (the area of, and muscles surrounding, the thoracolumbar fascia).

All other discussion is a wild goose chase if you truly want to discuss the role of the dantian in internal martial arts -- which is what this forum is for.
Last edited by Interloper on Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4755
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:58 pm

Interloper wrote:Speaking from a practical-applied martial arts perspective, dantian has nothing at all to do with anything esoteric, philosophical, sexual or religious. It is strictly about bio-mechanical movement for the purpose of generating power and maintaining structural stability of the body under martial duress (i.e. in combat, in motion).

As was shown in the videos earlier in the thread, there are very specific muscles and connective tissues that practitioners learn to identify/feel, and willfully activate to create different tensions which are exploited in the generation of force and in working in tandem with the mingmen (the area of, and muscles surrounding, the thoracolumbar fascia).

All other discussion is a wild goose chase if you truly want to discuss the role of the dantian in internal martial arts -- which is what this forum is for.

There may be a little bit of mysticism to add to all the physical in this case.
The Dantian area is supposed to be the place where qi energy is stored.
I have no doubt that qi is a real thing, but I try not to elaborate on it too much. The reason being is oh, I simply don't know what it is. So because there is no way for me to be sure what it is, then everything that I would add on to the conversation would be built on something that is most likely wrong. If you consider the conversation that these individuals were having about sexual energies and things like that. that is most likely because of the influence of yoga. The Dantian area is actually a sexual Center. Of course this has nothing to do with how I view the dantian and I have no idea if any of the information that these individuals have produced has any factual basis to it whatsoever.
willie

 

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:33 am

charles wrote:And you wondered why I wasn't all too interested in entering into this discussion. ;)

I'm also not interested in this discussion either. IMO, if you

- can knock down your opponent with your punch, whether your Dantien rotate or not is not important.
- can't knock down your opponent with your punch, whether your Dantien rotate or not has no meaning.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8566
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:48 am

johnwang wrote:- can knock down your opponent with your punch, whether your Dantien rotate or not is not important.
- can't knock down your opponent with your punch, whether your Dantien rotate or not has no meaning.


If you can knock someone down, does it matter if you understand dantian rotation or not?
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 6356
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:22 am

Bao wrote:If you can knock someone down, does it matter if you understand dantian rotation or not?

You can knock your opponent down just by body rotation. To achieve the same goal, there are many different paths. There are too many useful CMA skills that one can spend his life time to develop. Dantian rotation is not in that list. IMO, body rotation skill is much more important.

I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8566
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby voidisyinyang on Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:08 am

willie wrote:
Interloper wrote:Speaking from a practical-applied martial arts perspective, dantian has nothing at all to do with anything esoteric, philosophical, sexual or religious. It is strictly about bio-mechanical movement for the purpose of generating power and maintaining structural stability of the body under martial duress (i.e. in combat, in motion).

As was shown in the videos earlier in the thread, there are very specific muscles and connective tissues that practitioners learn to identify/feel, and willfully activate to create different tensions which are exploited in the generation of force and in working in tandem with the mingmen (the area of, and muscles surrounding, the thoracolumbar fascia).

All other discussion is a wild goose chase if you truly want to discuss the role of the dantian in internal martial arts -- which is what this forum is for.

There may be a little bit of mysticism to add to all the physical in this case.
The Dantian area is supposed to be the place where qi energy is stored.
I have no doubt that qi is a real thing, but I try not to elaborate on it too much. The reason being is oh, I simply don't know what it is. So because there is no way for me to be sure what it is, then everything that I would add on to the conversation would be built on something that is most likely wrong. If you consider the conversation that these individuals were having about sexual energies and things like that. that is most likely because of the influence of yoga. The Dantian area is actually a sexual Center. Of course this has nothing to do with how I view the dantian and I have no idea if any of the information that these individuals have produced has any factual basis to it whatsoever.


Just a little clarification here of a very common misconception: To

quote Tai Chi master Wong, Kiew Kit

Yan Xin Chi Kung, also based on the ancient Cosmos Chi Kung and developed by the great Grandmaster Yan Xin, often focuses at the navel.


The student of Yan Xin, Chunyi Lin, who also trained at Shaolin as a qigong alchemy master

, makes this same point of the “real” lower tan tien, as behind the navel. He says when he goes into the Emptiness he always sees light in his lower tan tien.

The Lower Dantian sits behind the navel, almost in the middle of the torso (this varies depending on the size of the body);


As qigong master Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming clarifies:

When stored Qi is built up to an abundant level at the False Lower Dan Tien, the excess is immediately distributed through the Conception and Governing Vessels, and the Twelve Primary Qi Channels….The False Lower Dan Tien is located about two inches below the navel in the abdominal area. This is Qihai (Co-6, Ocean of Qi) in Chinese medicine. (Qigong Meditation: Small Circulation, 2006).


As Tai Chi and

qigong master Waysun Liao states:

The center of our life energy resides in our lower tan tien, which is located behind the navel, in the lower stomach.


And then we have to turn to

Foundations of Internal Alchemy

by Wang Mu (pp. 21-2) to get further clarification:

The medical texts usually say that it is located 1.3 inches below the navel. According to the alchemical texts, instead, it is found 1.3 inches behind the navel….Why is it also said that the Cinnabar Field is located 1.3 inches below the navel? Zhao Taiding (Ming dynasty) gives the following explanation:

[translated from Mandarin] When we say 1.3 inches below the navel, this measure is taken with the body lying horizontally. [The Cinnabar Field- then is the point found 1.3 inches under the navel, that is between the kidneys.

In addition these explanations, there is another one. The Cinnabar Field is where the Elixir coalesces. As this is similar to a seed sown in a field, which naturally gives birth to sprouts and fruits that ripen in due time, it is called “field.”


Accordingly, this Lower Tan Tien wrong message of “below the navel” was erroneously passed down from a Master lying on his death bed to a student, and so on.
Last edited by voidisyinyang on Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
voidisyinyang
Anjing
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:46 am

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby marvin8 on Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:39 am

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:If you can knock someone down, does it matter if you understand dantian rotation or not?

You can knock your opponent down just by body rotation. To achieve the same goal, there are many different paths. There are too many useful CMA skills that one can spend his life time to develop. Dantian rotation is not in that list. IMO, body rotation skill is much more important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT6dKzBs5pE

In this situation, I agree with Bao's critique of Adam Mizner's taiji: ;)
Bao wrote:So no evidence yet that he has anything like striking power. Would be nice to see him strike against a bag or against a sturdy kicking protection. All he show when he is asked about punches is pushing. Pushes don’t automatically translate into damaging punching power.

One can "strike against a heavy bag" to show, develop, practice or test one's version/theory of dantian power:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1RH80H0MtE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNxoyyjXmO8
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:11 pm

Bao wrote: There are too many useful CMA skills that one can spend his life time to develop. Dantian rotation is not in that list.

Apparently somebody has misguided you as a child. Dantian rotation is probably more important than all of the Yang style forms and applications combined. You should really seek New Horizons and accept Chen as the father art of all taichi, because it is and the answers that you need are there.
Last edited by willie on Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
willie

 

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests