Purpose of the Tantien

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Bhassler on Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:52 am

willie wrote:<snip> it cost me a lot of money to get the right information. So why would I give it away for free?


I definitely respect that, but if people are going to teach, they should try to do it well. Anyone is free to set the value for their teaching to whatever they want, so cost is no excuse. I object to the notion that some teachers have that's sort of like "I went through shitty treatment to get what I got, so now my students should have to go through that, too." That's like justifying child abuse by saying that the abuser was themselves abused as a child. Even though it may be true, it doesn't excuse bad behavior. The whole notion of stringing people along, or being too lazy to actually work at teaching is just a poor way to go about life. Again, I'm just ranting in general, here, and not trying to call anyone out.
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby thepoeticedda on Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:14 pm

Hi All,

Didn't mean to cause problems with the videos I posted, my bad. I posted them cause I thought they were a decent introduction to the basics of what the dantian is for someone with absolutely no context of anything chinese martial arts, but in retrospect I do see how the sportsman analogy is problematic. Yeah, Silva is a great fighter who is more relaxed than the average MMA guy, but the world of difference between that and real internal CMAs gets lost and perpetuates the idea that it's all just about relaxing. Sorry.

Also, I do have to say I appreciate that this forum can talk about the Chen family martial arts without getting bogged down in the current melodrama, and instead just looks at what they're doing for what it is :)
thepoeticedda
Santi
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:31 pm

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Interloper on Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:47 pm

There was nothing wrong with posting the videos. You generated discussion, and that's what this forum is for. :)

I personally like seeing the anatomical-mechanical tissues responsible for the body mechanics I am studying. It actually didn't matter to me that the boxers and judoka, et al. weren't embodying the mechanics I use for "internal power," I just found the diagrams and descriptions of the muscles' basic functions to be useful as supplementary information to concepts I'm already familiar with.

The videos would be completely useless to a beginner who is not even familiar with the principles and concepts of the body method, however. As I stated previously, this kind of material is useful only to people who already have some training. Just as we could never teach ourselves a martial art from one of those books that show sequential photos of step-by-step forms, images of body parts ain't gonna do it for us, either. Nor will any verbal explanations, even accurate ones.

We all have to get our hands on a good teacher or at least instructor, and FEEL it, as we are being told the principles, concepts and mechanics behind what we are feeling (this is where it's critically important to have a good teaching language and vocabulary). Then, diagrams, photos, and videos can be helpful in clarifying those things for us...even flawed videos like these (flawed because the narrator reveals nothing about the actual mechanics being used to generate fajin, etc., and because of the random clips of fighters using very advanced but still "external" mechanics and movement).

Cheers!

thepoeticedda wrote:Hi All,

Didn't mean to cause problems with the videos I posted, my bad. I posted them cause I thought they were a decent introduction to the basics of what the dantian is for someone with absolutely no context of anything chinese martial arts, but in retrospect I do see how the sportsman analogy is problematic. Yeah, Silva is a great fighter who is more relaxed than the average MMA guy, but the world of difference between that and real internal CMAs gets lost and perpetuates the idea that it's all just about relaxing. Sorry.

Also, I do have to say I appreciate that this forum can talk about the Chen family martial arts without getting bogged down in the current melodrama, and instead just looks at what they're doing for what it is :)
Last edited by Interloper on Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4816
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Interloper on Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:04 pm

Bhassler wrote:
willie wrote:<snip> it cost me a lot of money to get the right information. So why would I give it away for free?


I definitely respect that, but if people are going to teach, they should try to do it well. Anyone is free to set the value for their teaching to whatever they want, so cost is no excuse. I object to the notion that some teachers have that's sort of like "I went through shitty treatment to get what I got, so now my students should have to go through that, too." That's like justifying child abuse by saying that the abuser was themselves abused as a child. Even though it may be true, it doesn't excuse bad behavior. The whole notion of stringing people along, or being too lazy to actually work at teaching is just a poor way to go about life. Again, I'm just ranting in general, here, and not trying to call anyone out.


We are very much an information-based consumer society, so there is an expectation inherent in our culture that we are entitled to the information we want. But inventors and corporations still keep their secrets so they can maintain control of output and dissemination of their products. That's why there's corporate espionage!

Martial arts are no different. Even in this day when weapons can kill even the highest-level kungfu fighter, traditional teachers hold onto their core methods because such skills are relatively rare, and thus precious. A student has to earn the privilege of receiving these teachings, and they can't be bought if the teacher doesn't want a particular person, or majority of people, to get them.

This is something of a culture clash, when you consider that almost anything is for sale in our Western society. But it's still a thing in Asian cultures to have a general class going on in the front of a school, where anyone can come in and learn the basic framework of a martial art, but in the back room are the "indoor students" who are learning something more. Here in the US and other Western countries, that would not go over well with some folks who felt they were paying their annual membership fee and monthly dues, and should thus be getting "everything."

There should be, and is, a "happy medium," however, IMO.

One of my teachers is truly open in sharing all aspects of his art with anyone willing to put the time and effort and passion into it. But, he will not hand out free info on the internet. You have to join one of his study groups or licensed instructors' schools, train with him directly, or at least get to several of his or his instructors' seminars and workshops every year. Those who have stuck with him really get the art, and continue to build and refine their skills for as long as they put the work and attention in.

My other teacher, in a different art from a different country/culture, came from a very traditional teacher who selected who would get the full art based on how hard they worked, how dedicated they were to the art and dojo, and their character. The guys who just wanted to learn to fight, got combat skills. The ones who wanted the full traditional experience, and were willing to learn the etiquette (which, they found out down the road, was tied into martial conditioning) and traditions, got the full art, including the tanren (body-forging exercises, which also have a deep purpose), the combat skills, and the internals, which are all tied together. They all paid the same fees, but got different things from the art. The ones who told the teacher what -they- wanted, got just what they wanted and nothing more. They didn't allow for the possibility that there could be something in the art they didn't know about or understand, yet. They just knew about fighting, and wanted that. The ones who were open and willing to be shown all that they did not know, were the ones who got it all. All for the same monthly dues.
Last edited by Interloper on Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4816
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:30 pm

The 4 vids are quite good
The third one is a little off
Also some of the people he chose to use don't really show the point he is using very well
Saying that they were good enough for me to post them on my site
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5665
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:37 am

wayne hansen wrote:The 4 vids are quite good
The third one is a little off
Also some of the people he chose to use don't really show the point he is using very well
Saying that they were good enough for me to post them on my site

Well then I applaud you Wayne, because I couldn't bear even finishing the first video. Perhaps you would like to share with the class what you felt was so great about them?
willie

 

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:46 am

marvin8 wrote:

1. What should "internal body method" look like when you apply "hip throw" or "single leg"? Can someone just put up a "demo" clip?

For John Wang. Finally found it @2:50! -woot- :
Image[/quote]


Even though Chen Ziqiang is very much internal, that hip throw appears to be purely externally executed. Just because somebody is an internal martial artist does not necessarily mean that everything that they now do is internal.
Last edited by willie on Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
willie

 

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:14 am

Hmm, is there a clip of an "internally" executed hip throw, so we could compare?
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 21137
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby thepoeticedda on Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:34 am

willie wrote:Well then I applaud you Wayne, because I couldn't bear even finishing the first video.


I think I spotted the problem already...
thepoeticedda
Santi
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:31 pm

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby charles on Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:51 am

wayne hansen wrote:The 4 vids are quite good
The third one is a little off
Also some of the people he chose to use don't really show the point he is using very well


Pretty much my opinion, as well.

willie wrote:Well then I applaud you Wayne, because I couldn't bear even finishing the first video. Perhaps you would like to share with the class what you felt was so great about them?


I'm not Wayne, but I'll offer my opinion.

I don't think the videos were "great" - Wayne said "quite good" - but there are a few things noteworthy.

First, they provide some physical basis for the "stuff" referred to as "dan tian", beyond the usual mystical "energy centre" and source of qi. Second, they provide some description of the functional significance of the dan tian, connecting upper and lower parts of the body, and its role as a transmitter of force from lower to upper (i.e. "directed by the waist").
Last edited by charles on Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby thepoeticedda on Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:09 am

Also, in regards to the Chen Ziqiang clip, without getting too deep into the whole internal vs external debate, I do think it's a good example of slipping around an opponents force. So Ziqiang gets the hand position then the opponent starts pressuring in on his face. Ziqiang doesn't fight back against that pressure but instead lets it happen so he can switch into his hip position. Once he's got the hip leverage the opponent puts downward pressure on his lower back and Ziqiang still doesn't try and just power through it, even though in that position he might've been able too. Instead he redirects the guy's bodyweight and lets it get thrown around him. Now, maybe he did that just cause he doesn't want to smash his student, but I do think the clip shows that at the very least he's maintaining sensitivity throughout the throw.
thepoeticedda
Santi
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:31 pm

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby windwalker on Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:08 am

charles wrote:First, they provide some physical basis for the "stuff" referred to as "dan tian", beyond the usual mystical "energy centre" and source of qi. Second, they provide some description of the functional significance of the dan tian, connecting upper and lower parts of the body, and its role as a transmitter of force from lower to upper (i.e. "directed by the waist").



Nice summation

What type of force is transmitted and how always a point of contention depending on viewpoint.
The types and rationale of the training required to do so can be quite different IME not compatible.

FWIW thought the videos where well produced and tried to present good insights based on the vedios authors
experience and understanding.

This teacher talks about dantain development.
He mentions talking about the dantain to early is not a good...if ones basics are not developed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDP3sfJCuI
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10549
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:19 am

thepoeticedda wrote:
willie wrote:Well then I applaud you Wayne, because I couldn't bear even finishing the first video.


I think I spotted the problem already...

Are you sure?
willie

 

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby willie on Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:31 am

charles wrote:
willie wrote:Well then I applaud you Wayne, because I couldn't bear even finishing the first video. Perhaps you would like to share with the class what you felt was so great about them?


I'm not Wayne, but I'll offer my opinion.

I don't think the videos were "great" - Wayne said "quite good" - but there are a few things noteworthy.

First, they provide some physical basis for the "stuff" referred to as "dan tian", beyond the usual mystical "energy centre" and source of qi. Second, they provide some description of the functional significance of the dan tian, connecting upper and lower parts of the body, and its role as a transmitter of force from lower to upper (i.e. "directed by the waist").

Charles, I was actually hoping that you would drop in. I agree with what you're saying to some extent. However, my comments were specifically directed at the narrative. As soon as the Kung Fu guy through in UFC fighters into the mix, as example.he already proved to me that he did not understand the concept. So what was the purpose of throwing in UFC fighters into a discussion about internal power and the use of the Dantian? I admit that I might appear a bit strict on the topic. However, with all the misconceptions out there, is that really such a bad thing? I'm not into embellishment. Graham had asked a very simple question And it has not even been answered yet, why?
Last edited by willie on Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
willie

 

Re: Purpose of the Tantien

Postby thepoeticedda on Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:54 am

@Willie, I get your point about needing to separate internal CMA mechanics from western sports fighters, I just think it's a tad extreme to not look at anything the video says because of one thing he says in the beginning of the series. But I mean it's whatever, I'm not a spokesman for this guys channel, lol :)
Last edited by thepoeticedda on Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
thepoeticedda
Santi
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:31 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests