Center line principle -- overrated?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby willie on Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:47 am

johnwang wrote:
willie wrote:What you're describing is simply Cloud hands, I believe

Since in "cloud hands", your arms only move in one direction, the general term for circular movement arms should be called "分手(Fen Shou) - separate hands".

By moving your arms in circle with different directions, you can separate your opponent arms

1. both upward,
2. both downward,
3. left arm upward, right arm downward.
4. left arm downward, right arm upward.

For 1 and 2 Okay then I misunderstood a bit. After considering what you had just wrote, I would not be interested in that type of technique. the reasons being, It is impossible to coordinate Dantian powered arms that are simultaneously traveling in different directions.
It is in conflict with itself.
3 and 4 is okay. Silk reeling has both arms doing opposite circles there is basically no difference from cloud hands. But they are timed in such a way that the body can be used without being broken.
Edit .
Actually I do have techniques with both hands up or down that are powered by Dantian rotation. The timing is only slightly off which allows the Dantian to rotate freely and not be in conflict with either arm. So even 1 or 2 is also fine
Last edited by willie on Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:10 pm

C.J.W. wrote:In many Asian fighting arts, guarding, attacking, and generating power from the center line is often taught as a key principle.

Most combat arts have some type of concept of center line. Boxing uses angles, positioning and whole body power using the center. However, it still uses hooks. An example of changing/controlling the center line is to to distract opponent's vision with a jab, while stepping to create an angle.

C.J.W. wrote:However, in street fights as well as combat sport matches, we see that people are very often knocked out by hook-like curved punches that leave the striker's center line exposed -- as opposed to straight-line punches like the orthodox jab and cross that appear to adhere to the center line principle.

Any thoughts?

If one does not know how and when to throw a proper hook, it can be dangerous. However, the hook is normally taught using the whole body (not arm punching) in a combination/setup. Straight attacks set up curved attacks. For example: jab, then straight to lure opponent to bring hand(s) in the front to block (defensive position), then hook around guard.

By just throwing straight punches, one limits oneself. Just throwing straight punches is easier to predict and neutralize (see Xu vs Ding). If throwing only straight punches was the best strategy, boxers would not use hooks. Which punches to use (e.g. straight, curved) depends on the opponent's reaction(s).
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:56 pm

It’s just a matter of understanding the centerline, any strike is ineffective if it does not affect the core, knowing that is knowing the center is the same on all sides, to protect it you must recognize and control the angles available for attack. Step inside of the curve, step off of any straight line.
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:32 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:It’s just a matter of understanding the centerline, any strike is ineffective if it does not affect the core, knowing that is knowing the center is the same on all sides, to protect it you must recognize and control the angles available for attack. Step inside of the curve, step off of any straight line.

One cannot "step inside of the curve" if one is backing up (double weighted) from a straight line attack (small steps, forward pressure, controlling distance). @ :11, Rose hooks over Joanna's right guard:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2BilitfWMk&t=0m11s

If the opponent chooses (or lured) to come straightforward, one can pivot (change the center line), then hook without crowding his punch (check hook). @ :43:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mz84dXgqbA&t=0m43s
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:13 pm

In either case, as in any, whose controlling the center. The footwork is the control.
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby GrandUltimate on Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:14 am

Yes and No.

I think a lot of people go too far in theory-crafting and making center line principle into some weird Godlike concept. Which is silly IMHO.

Then again, I think everyone who is using their art effectively is using center line principles and relies on it to some significant degree. It's just not as unique as some people make it seem. It's just a cat, and there are many ways to skin a cat.
"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another"
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:42 am

The speedball,top and bottom ball and heavy bag are all centreline training
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby klonk on Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:54 am

When I look at laowai quan, my humorous term for Western boxing, I see a bias for centerline shots, but nothing that would get in the way of using anything that works. I like boxing because there is a preference for the wisdom of the body instead of the wisdom of the mind. What I mean is that there is very little theory: Boxers are not obsessed with their qi and boxing gyms are not arranged with any particular attention to feng shui. Instead it is practice, practice, practice.

There are three punches every boxer uses all the time. There are others, but the basic arsenal is left jab, right cross, left hook. The left hook follows naturally after the hip's twist toward the left that most boxers put behind their right cross. As you reset your weight toward the centerline, you might as well stick your fist out, and that is the left hook.

Boxers and Xingyi adepts, both alike, find my comparisons of the two arts tenuous or tedious. But there is a common foundation to both arts. You punch with your hand, but your hand is the least interesting part of the equation, which involves timing, momentum, weight, balance, form and intention.

Because in Western boxing you sway off the centerline, either to deliver a heavy right cross or to evade via bob and weave, the reset to the centerline as you return to your fighting stance represents free bonus energy.
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby marvin8 on Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:09 am

C.J.W. wrote:In many Asian fighting arts, guarding, attacking, and generating power from the center line is often taught as a key principle.

However, in street fights as well as combat sport matches, we see that people are very often knocked out by hook-like curved punches that leave the striker's center line exposed -- as opposed to straight-line punches like the orthodox jab and cross that appear to adhere to the center line principle.

Any thoughts?


These two guys (Ip Man lineage: Paul Ma [Ma Yuk Ping], Augustine Fong): say there are hooks in wing chun.

@ 4:21, talks about centerline. @ 5:39, How do I fight realistically in a street fight. Teacher Paul Ma said, “Fight naturally. Fight like a boxer if that is natural for you.” @ 8:13, “In the Chum Kiu form, we have hook punches.”

TOMMYBOY6969
Published on Apr 1, 2018

Wing Chun is a Concept Based Martial Arts. What you do in a Wing Chun class should not be
done exactly the same way in actual application:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60epugVTOAQ

From https://www.facebook.com/wcwingchun/pos ... 3524536795:
Windy City Wing Chun Gung Fu, Inc on January 14, 2013 wrote:There are 8 punches in Wing Chun, all of which can be found within the 3 hand forms.

1) Regular
2) upper cut
3) low punch
4) inside whip
5) outside whip
6) Inside diagonal
7) outside diagonal
8) hammer

Windy City Wing Chun Gung Fu, Inc inside diagonal can be a short or big hook, just depends how you apply it..... there's so much more in wing chun then just chain punching. Only noobs do chain punching, lol


From Wing Chun punching methods, http://www.network54.com/Forum/133357/t ... ng+methods,
Augustine Fong wrote:Inside diagonal punch "ngoi doi gok kuen" appears similar to a boxers hook except that the whole body turns, drilling the punch into the center, ending with the fist on the centerline. This fist can be used when a straight line cannot. The fist is at the height of the sternum when practicing in the air, while the angle of the fist is in between being horizontal and vertical (palm facing yourself). The elbow is out slightly, while sunk. The entire fist makes contact with this punch.


@ :22, hook punch.

windycitywingchun
Published on Jan 11, 2013:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwTnfrumGEI&t=0m22s

@ 3:18, inside diagonal punch (hook), swoop change the center.

windycitywingchun
Published on Jan 17, 2013:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-SoTx4cl2A&t=3m18s
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:52 am

Still pretty simple, in fighting you don’t want to get hit, so you protect your core ie center, you don’t do that and you are just a punching bag. Advance step inside the curve and off the straight, real rear, step outside the curve and away from the straight line. Paries and blocks just touch the offensive pole to deflect off line, any sweeping movement simply takes you away from the center.
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby marvin8 on Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:09 am

Wanderingdragon wrote:Still pretty simple, in fighting you don’t want to get hit, so you protect your core ie center, you don’t do that and you are just a punching bag. Advance step inside the curve and off the straight, real rear, step outside the curve and away from the straight line. Paries and blocks just touch the offensive pole to deflect off line, any sweeping movement simply takes you away from the center.

For the record, I was not disagreeing with your quote. It made sense to me. I was just elaborating on it. The examples, I used may be consistent with your statements.

As the wing chun guy said in the video, the wing chun practitioner drills the centerline, squared off against another wing chun person. In a fight, the centerline can be dynamic, constantly changing.
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:30 pm

Subitai wrote:
- the issue is Timing. Many think strikes that travel Point A to Point B > beats curved or rounded strikes. But that's only true if they began at the exact same time.

Timing, rhythm / broken rhythm or better initiative for example can defy that underlined principle. As per your question about strikes...It's that simple dude.


Very well said.

What I've also seen happen quite often in fights is that even when a straight-line strike and a curved strike begin at the same time, the latter usually clears the former out of the way due to
the horizontal and "sweeping" force it produces, and hits the opponent right in the side or back of the head as they move in from angles that are harder to see.
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:44 pm

This Romanian kickboxer is a good example of what I'm talking about. He is an ex-rugby player turned kickboxer, and has a tough brawling style that makes use of wide, rounded strikes that, by TMA standards, expose the center line momentarily. Yet he is able to apply those strikes effectively and knock even bigger opponents down.



Last edited by C.J.W. on Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby johnwang on Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:51 pm

C.J.W. wrote: even when a straight-line strike and a curved strike begin at the same time, the latter usually clears the former out of the way due to
the horizontal and "sweeping" force it produces,

Agree! Here is an example.

Last edited by johnwang on Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Center line principle -- overrated?

Postby chimerical tortoise on Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:32 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Footwork and Shenfa are critical to proper application, which is why Wingchun is doomed - they lack it.


Really now? Tell me more ;D
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