Yang Zhaopeng

[Rhen]

I recently found a couple of photos of Yang Zhaopeng (good looking man!), son of Yang Banhou. Is there much known about him on here? Who was mostly responsible for his training? Was he a known fighter like his father and grandfather? It'd be good to know more about him; I like reading about the first three generations of the Yang family.

Another name I was wondering about is Yang Zhensheng, son of Yang Shaohou, although unlike Zhaopeng I'm not even sure he was involved in Tai Chi at all.

I've heard that Yang Zhaopeng taught some folks, but it was not large frame, closer to middle frame with much more 'chan suu jin' silk reeling. Fu Zhongwen mentioned learning from his neighbor Yang Zhaopeng for many years in Guangfu town/Yongnian before sent to Shanghai to later learn from and be a disciple to Yang Chenfu who would be the "Lineage Holder" of the Yang Family.

[wayne hansen]

People who have a poor or rudimentary knowledge of Yang style setting themselves up as experts of its structure and history while training other arts should be taken with a grain of salt

[GrahamB]

People who have a poor or rudimentary knowledge of Yang style setting themselves up as experts of its structure and history while training other arts should be taken with a grain of salt

[Frank Bellemare]

Until forms were codified for mass teaching, each practitioner used to make them their own. Whenever that "Chen taiji as it is practiced today is the original taiji" debate arises, I like to point to Du Yuze, who learned privately from Chen Fake's father, Chen Yanxi.

You can see his taiji is definitely Chen, but it's tighter and less flowery than today's Chen, somewhere between Chen and Yang. In my opinion, this shows that Chen style changed as much as Yang did in the last 150 years. So in the end, the only thing to consider should be the skillset of the teacher, rather than the hypothetical degrees of separation from the original form, although it's a fun debate to have.

[charles]

Until forms were codified for mass teaching, each practitioner used to make them their own. Whenever that "Chen taiji as it is practiced today is the original taiji" debate arises, I like to point to Du Yuze, who learned privately from Chen Fake's father, Chen Yanxi.

You can see his taiji is definitely Chen, but it's tighter and less flowery than today's Chen, somewhere between Chen and Yang. In my opinion, this shows that Chen style changed as much as Yang did in the last 150 years.

The video of Du Yuze that you posted shows him doing a pretty standard rendition of (Large Frame) Lao Jia Yi Lu ("old" frame, first routine). Look at most modern performances of the same form and you'll see that it is changed relatively little.

By contrast, Chen Fake and his son Chen Zhoukui are the "authors" of Xin Jia ("new" frame), which, while based on Lao Jia, is more flowery, contains more overt winding motions, more small circles, more obvious qinna and tends to show more fa jin. More often than not, what one sees demonstrated is Xin Jia, as it looks more "dynamic".

From there, there are modern adaptations for competition, generally based on Xin Jia, as well as modern styles, such as Feng's Hun Yuan, which is Xin Jia-based, and Hong's "Practical Method", all of which are different, by definition, from Lao Jia. However, lots of modern practitioners still teach and practice Yi Lu and it is my preferred Chen form to teach to beginners because, being less embelished, is easier to teach and learn.

[GrahamB]

Also, that video is from 1975 - it's not ancient.

[willie]

Since Yang Lu Chan learned from Chen Chanxing, isn't the "original and complete" style, actually, Chen style?

Whats the point of arguing over the crumbs spilled from the table?

These are not the crumbs on the floor, it's the crumbs left in the cookie Jar..they are still goodies

Graham is correct. It only makes sense. If you remember right a while back Graham had posted a thread on rollback The Unfinished technique or something like that. He was using a BJJ move to end the confrontation after rollback. When I was heavily involved with Yang Style, I found myself always searching for Jiu-Jitsu moves to end it. Why? Why, if Yang style was so powerful, why then did it not have finishing moves. Do you really believe that everything was just off balance somebody or try to push him away? Sorry guys but the cat is out of the bag and a few brave people ain't afraid to say it.

[GrahamB]

Willie - I don't think "taijiquan" is really found in techniques. A Chen rollback is the same as a Yang style rollback, so I don't think there's any real difference.

But.... if the question is, is Chen style a more complete style than Yang style? I think it probably is. That doesn't have any indication of how good an individual practitioner of either style might be at fighting or at Taijiquan.

[wayne hansen]

Just throwin shade here girl
But that's what I was sayin
It's about the practicioner and his depth within the art
If you have to go outside the art to complete a move you weren't inside in the first place
Just sayin

[willie]

Willie - I don't think "taijiquan" is really found in techniques. A Chen rollback is the same as a Yang style rollback, so I don't think there's any real difference.

But.... if the question is, is Chen style a more complete style than Yang style? I think it probably is. That doesn't have any indication of how good an individual practitioner of either style might be at fighting or at Taijiquan.

Hi Graham. Chen Rollback is not the same as yang Style, it is powered by Dantian rotation using a concept of helical gears.
And to be absolutely honest with you, I have been teaching my son everything that I have done in martial arts, that he wanted to learn that is, since he was about 2 years old. When I found the real hi power Chen and started bringing this stuff home to my son. This is exactly what he said to me. First off he was stunned, just as stunned as I was when I ran into it. He said " dad, this is like the whole other half that we never knew existed". We were trying to win using no Force. The martial was removed for the most part . starting to make sense?

[GrahamB]

I'm not drinking Bao's Yang style koolaid.

I'm not drinking Willie's Chen style koolaid.

I'm not drinking Wayne's Wu style koolaid.

Just down in the bottom of the well, singing my song.
(repeat).



p.s. I don't think anybody has ever done BJJ looking for things that aren't in Tai Chi. There's not much Tai Chi on the ground - you may have noticed. I do BJJ because it's fun. I think that's true of most people.

[willie]

I'm not drinking Bao's Yang style koolaid.

I'm not drinking Willie's Chen style koolaid.

I'm not drinking Wayne's Wu style koolaid.

Just down in the bottom of the well, singing my song.
(repeat).



p.s. I don't think anybody has ever done BJJ looking for things that aren't in Tai Chi. There's not much Tai Chi on the ground - you may have noticed. I do BJJ because it's fun. I think that's true of most people.

Well Graham you kind of blew it with me again kid LOL!
We don't do Kool-Aid over here save that for your Moonies. And your purple belt isn't going to hold up over here Graham.

[GrahamB]

“If a man knows not to which port he sails, no wind is favorable.”
― Seneca

[johnwang]

if Yang style was so powerful, why then did it not have finishing moves.

I have asked this question for the past 30 years. "How will you use Yang Taiji to kill your opponent?" People may say that I should not use the word "kill". When I swing my Miao Dao, I do intend to cut my opponent's body in half. Why should I lie to myself?

I like to start from the entering strategies and link to finished strategies. One of my students likes to start from the finish strategies and then link back to the entering strategies. By using either approaches, to finish a fight ASAP is the goal.

If you (general YOU) think that you can soft, yield, sticky, follow, sink, ..., your opponent to death, you truly don't understand what "fighting" is all about. Yang Taiji has soft, But where is the hard?

[Steve James]

I have asked this question for the past 30 years. "How will you use Yang Taiji to kill your opponent?"

1) You push your opponent off a roof.

2) You stab him in the eye with your taichi sword.

3) You can ask a western boxer or karateka the same question. Outside of using qi power, the techniques will be similar because human bodies are similar.

4) The question assumes that anyone trains a martial art in order to kill. People who train to kill practice with weapons designed to do so.

Well, afa the thread, I'm sure there are loads of non-Yang students who practice killing or who'll say they do. So, John, I think it's about time you started asking them.