Yang Zhaopeng

[nicklinjm]

Agree with Bao, Tian Zhaolin actually learnt his taiji mostly from Jianhou and some from Shaohou. Later in life he was ordered by the family to become a disciple of YCF, but I think this was mostly a matter of Chinese concerns about beifen (generation) within that particular kungfu family.

When you look at the forms and curriculum passed down by Tian style people in, say, Shanghai, with the Baduanjin, at least 3 different frames, much more lively footwork, more circles, plus the increased emphasis on qinna and some quite scary fajin (depending on the practitioner), the differences between what they practice and what pure YCF lineages practice is pretty obvious.

Regarding Jia Anshu / the Yongnian people, my impression on my trip to Yongnian is that they may have preserved some of the old ancillary sets but in terms of taiji skill I did not see anything particularly special.

[Bao]

Agree with Bao, Tian Zhaolin actually learnt his taiji mostly from Jianhou and some from Shaohou. Later in life he was ordered by the family to become a disciple of YCF, but I think this was mostly a matter of Chinese concerns about beifen (generation) within that particular kungfu family.

When you look at the forms and curriculum passed down by Tian style people in, say, Shanghai, with the Baduanjin, at least 3 different frames, much more lively footwork, more circles, plus the increased emphasis on qinna and some quite scary fajin (depending on the practitioner), the differences between what they practice and what pure YCF lineages practice is pretty obvious.

Regarding Jia Anshu / the Yongnian people, my impression on my trip to Yongnian is that they may have preserved some of the old ancillary sets but in terms of taiji skill I did not see anything particularly special.

Interesting. Confirms what I thought. Thanks.

[Trick]

Since Yang Lu Chan learned from Chen Chanxing, isn't the "original and complete" style, actually, Chen style?

Whats the point of arguing over the crumbs spilled from the table?

These are not the crumbs on the floor, it's the crumbs left in the cookie Jar..they are still goodies

[Yuen-Ming]

Tian Zhaolin learned most of his stuff from Jianhou, then devised “his own style” based on knowledge from various family members. Formally, however, he was a disciple (not a student) of Yang Chengfu to whom he was assigned by the family.

John is right about Jia Anshu and various other Yongnian practitioners, many of which have preserved a lot of the original curriculum but not the skills. Unfortunately, skills are passed down hands-on by somebody who have them and without such transmission any curriculum is totally irrelevant.

And yes, Yang Luchan learned from CCX but we cannot possibly know whether what we see today as Chen style is the same material that was taught to YLC. So that is irrelevant too

YM

PS: oh and by the way, also Yang Zhaopeng was a formal disciple of Yang Chengfu

[Bao]

John is right about Jia Anshu and various other Yongnian practitioners, many of which have preserved a lot of the original curriculum but not the skills. Unfortunately, skills are passed down hands-on by somebody who have them and without such transmission any curriculum is totally irrelevant.

Interesting... Who do you think has the "good stuff"?

And yes, Yang Luchan learned from CCX but we cannot possibly know whether what we see today as Chen style is the same material that was taught to YLC. So that is irrelevant too

Exactly.

But we also know that that YLC did not only study Chen family boxing. What Yang Lu Chan created could thus be consider the original Tai Chi Chuan, and Chen boxing a forerunner. Or we could name Wang Zongyue the founder and call both Chen and Yang branches. Where "Tai Chi" starts is just a matter of perspective.

[GrahamB]

I was just poking fun a little with my question, as usual.

However, I think there is a serious point in there. I'm pretty sure that if you go by Ocham's razor, then the most likely outcome is that Yang was only allowed to teach watered-down Chen. Hence we are all scrabbling over scraps from the table, when the whole meal is available. Not that I have any vested interest either way - I practice a Yang style, and prefer it to Chen style to practice, but that's my personal perference for a movement form.

Occam's razor (also Ockham's razor or Ocham's razor; Latin: lex parsimoniae "law of parsimony") is the problem-solving principle that, when presented with competing hypothetical answers to a problem, one should select the one that makes the fewest assumptions.

[Bao]

If you want to come up with as simple conclusion as possible, you need to consider the facts. If you don't want to consider facts, it doesn't matter what conclusion you make.

Fact: YLC was not only taught by the Chen family.
Fact: the name Tai Chi was created by YLC's student.
Fact: almost every other Tai Chi style bears more resemblance to Yang than Chen.

The simplest conclusion is that yang style is the original Tai Chi and Chen style a forerunner with some Shaolin thrown in to it.

[GrahamB]

I think the simplest answer, with the least assumptions, is

1. He learned Tai Chi in Chen village

2. He left, and spread the art to everyone else, but wasn't allowed to teach the full art.

3. If you want to learn what he learned, then you can still find it in Chen village.

(Caveat - The chances of a westerner being taught the secrets I would say are pretty much zero anyway).

[Bao]

Again, if you don't want to

1. He learned Tai Chi in Chen village

He learned Chen family Boxing. YLC also learned other arts and put them together. He had spent many years learning Shaolin as Xiaohong Quan and related exercises before he went to Chen Village.

2. He left, and spread the art to everyone else, but wasn't allowed to teach the full art.

YLC taught something partly different than Chen boxing and called it something by other name.

3. If you want to learn what he learned, then you can still find it in Chen village.

Oh... please tell me where...

Yuen-Ming expressed it good: "we cannot possibly know whether what we see today as Chen style is the same material that was taught to YLC. So that is irrelevant too." Facts are also that Chen boxing had been long time lost from the village after the Cultural Revolution had passed. And also that Chen Fake, who had no knowledge of, or interest in, the kind of internal exercises that Chen Wangting once brought to the Chen village, had a huge impact on Modern Chen Style TJQ. What he had learned was an external and highly Shaolin influenced art and he treated his art as such. It was Fake's students who once again brought back more internal principles back into their art using what they had been taught from Yang and Wu styles. http://practicalmethod.com/2012/02/from ... in-a-name/

[GrahamB]

Fake news. Alternative facts.

[Bao]

Did you read the article? It's from a Chen guy. No one know if YLC was taught anything internal in Chen village because there was nothing there in what Chen Fake had. It's the Chen family who has spread the fake news. But not everyone believe their alternative history. People who has studied the facts and history don't.

[GrahamB]

If you want an actual fact, how about this: Practical Method is not Chen style! It's widely acknowledged as not being the Chen style of Chen village, which is why it has another name. You can't say that article is an impartial viewpoint.

Of course, if you don't actually look into things in much depth, he's just another "Chen guy".

[Trick]

Yuen-Ming expressed it good: "we cannot possibly know whether what we see today as Chen style is the same material that was taught to YLC. So that is irrelevant too." Facts are also that Chen boxing had been long time lost from the village after the Cultural Revolution had passed. And also that Chen Fake, who had no knowledge of, or interest in, the kind of internal exercises that Chen Wangting once brought to the Chen village, had a huge impact on Modern Chen Style TJQ. What he had learned was an external and highly Shaolin influenced art and he treated his art as such. It was Fake's students who once again brought back more internal principles back into their art using what they had been taught from Yang and Wu styles. http://practicalmethod.com/2012/02/from ... in-a-name/

As Chen Fake was good friend with one of the foremost neigung masters of Beijing at the time 'Hu Yaozhen' it might be so that the neijia aspect was reinstalled into Chen family boxing with Chen Fake, but that feels a little long shot....Hu Yaozhen was Feng Zhiqiang's first teacher from who he learned Xinyiquan and neigung...but interesting that Hu Yaozhenn recommended Feng to continue his studies with Chen Fake.....About Hu - http://hunyuaninstitute.com/huandhunyuan.pdf

[willie]

I think the simplest answer, with the least assumptions, is

1. He learned Tai Chi in Chen village

2. He left, and spread the art to everyone else, but wasn't allowed to teach the full art.

3. If you want to learn what he learned, then you can still find it in Chen village.

(Caveat - The chances of a westerner being taught the secrets I would say are pretty much zero anyway).

Yep!

[willie]

Did you read the article? It's from a Chen guy. No one know if YLC was taught anything internal in Chen village because there was nothing there in what Chen Fake had. It's the Chen family who has spread the fake news. But not everyone believe their alternative history. People who has studied the facts and history don't.

Bao, ask yourself is very simple question. Why do you disapprove of chen-style so much? Do you think that ylc felt that way as well? I mean for god sakes man the guy spent almost 20 years of his life dedicated to the Chen family.

I'm going to get into internal in a minute and you may find that you do not even have internal.