the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

charles wrote:

willie wrote:Almost every Yang Style practitioner only has half of the art...

As does nearly every other practitioner of Taijiquan, including Chen style. In short, regardless of what they are taught, most don't get beyond beginner/advanced-beginner levels.

You quoted me quoting Chen Xiaowang who stated that very few Chen stylists get beyond 1.5 out of 5. So, for discussion purposes, let's say that Chen practitioners get both halves of the art. Perhaps they do but, according to the former head of the style, most don't get very far with it. That's not much different from any other style of Taijiquan, regardless of how many halves they learn. Again, the bottom line is that very few practitioners of any style of Taijiquan attain high-level skills at it. If one can find a teacher who has high-level skills and is willing to teach them, one should consider oneself fortunate.

I've had as many bad Chen teachers as I have bad Yang teachers, some famous, some not. That one practices/learns Chen style is no guarantee of superiority or a deeper level of teaching.

I agree. The situation with Chen Style could in fact be even worse then Yang Style. I'll tell you why. A lot of the Chen stylist that I met are not soft enough. They are rigid and because they are rigid they could be easily manipulated by softness. What also comes along with this rigidness? A rigid, callus , mindset. So in ways Yang Style is much more desirable in a public setting. Everybody can find enjoyment in softness, friendliness, yielding. things like that. On the other hand, nobody likes someone who is unyielding or hard or unfriendly. So there must be a balance.
So what else is going on in the Tai Chi world? Jealousy!

willie wrote:

Steve Rowe wrote:

willie wrote:
if Yang style was so powerful, why then did it not have finishing moves.

Bit confused with that, what about shoulder stroke, elbow, fist, joint dislocation, strangles, chokes, throws.... all in the YCF form without any necessary 'adaptions'?

Steve to be fair, I would have to agree with you that there is the potential there for finishing moves. So I would like to rephrase just a little bit. However, none of the higher-level Yang style guys that I met have any competency at all as far as using the applications from the forms. In fact, most ignore all of those things in a belief that just sticking yielding and adhering is the higher level. How many times on this very site have people tried to correct me saying that the martial applications were a dime a dozen ? Let's examine the term use no Force. Isn't that int conflict with fist, elbow, strangle, martial arts? How do you break somebody's arm or apply any simple lock and use no Force. As I had tried to tell this board when I first joined. My sifu is using 500 pounds of force, not four ounces. Go watch GM whj. He is putting out an incredible amount of power. It is straight from the Dantian. He kicks to break legs, that is not 4 ounces!

Maybe it's interpretation, 'force' would intimate using more power than necessary. Optimum is a good term using good alignment, smooth spiralling acceleration, good technique destroying the opponents structure and using the yang 'pinball' fa geng to a good target is the most effective self defence I've seen.

Incidentally learned the pinball fa geng idea from YSC's daughter.

So what else is going on in the Tai Chi world? Jealousy!

No, only confusing by those who've yet to meet others who can express what was written about by past masters, or as in this thread
can't seem to understand what force is, how its expressed and what using no force means.

If one can not derive this from their teacher or practice, find a better teacher or change the practice
its pretty simple.


"no force" starts from an equilibrium point, effectively a zero point. The definition I use

"A condition in which all influences acting cancel each other, so that a static or balanced situation results. In physics, equilibrium results from the cancellation of forces acting on an object."


No force doesn't mean "no" force, it only means do not add beyond what is needed to maintain
equilibrium static or dynamic. How this is done should accord with ones own practice if they use this idea. Lots of different ways
to approach and express it.

In order to start this process one has to understand that any force felt is ones own force, ie the amount of force one uses to maintain a point or shape...

It's not a question of having or not having fajin rather it's a question of the expression and the quality of the power. We have been down this road before - there are translations of Yang Chengfu books by either Barb Davis or Louis Swaim that cite witnesses to Yang Chengfu public demonstrations in which his kicks were executed with fajin. The issue among the different Northern styles, imo, centers more on the differences in how you train for fajin expression and body structure/frame unique to the style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJtKBTlKL8

Published on Feb 1, 2008
Fu Zhongwen realizando ejercicios de fajing de Tai Chi Chuan estilo Yang tradicional.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToUyWr809Cg



Its been so long ago, maybe 20 years +, that I purchased Wind Sweeps Away the Plum Blossoms: The Principles and Techniques of Yung Style Tai Chi Spear and Staff. By Stuart A. Olson. Bubbling Springs ... and it's accompanying video which shows a lineage holder (maybe Yang Banhou lineage?) of the Yang style taiji demonstrating the exercises of the big pole training but I think they were a relatively long flexible spear (over 10 foot) and the drills all expressed fajin in their executions.

Bob wrote:It's not a question of having or not having fajin rather it's a question of the expression and the quality of the power. We have been down this road before - there are translations of Yang Chengfu books by either Barb Davis or Louis Swaim that cite witnesses to Yang Chengfu public demonstrations in which his kicks were executed with fajin. The issue among the different Northern styles, imo, centers more on the differences in how you train for fajin expression and body structure/frame unique to the style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJtKBTlKL8

Published on Feb 1, 2008
Fu Zhongwen realizando ejercicios de fajing de Tai Chi Chuan estilo Yang tradicional.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToUyWr809Cg



Its been so long ago, maybe 20 years +, that I purchased Wind Sweeps Away the Plum Blossoms: The Principles and Techniques of Yung Style Tai Chi Spear and Staff. By Stuart A. Olson. Bubbling Springs ... and it's accompanying video which shows a lineage holder (maybe Yang Banhou lineage?) of the Yang style taiji demonstrating the exercises of the big pole training but I think they were a relatively long flexible spear (over 10 foot) and the drills all expressed fajin in their executions.

Unfortunately those videos are not impressive at all. They do not have the correct information. They may be good at what they do, but that is not it.

willie wrote:
Do you think that it would be in thin air if you went and stood in front of him? The other example that Windwalker keeps foolishly presenting to the board, is only because CXW was being nice. That guy would be dead.

Yikes....not another one of CXW's fajin demos.

Here's some food for thought: One of my teachers served as the secretary general of Taiwan's largest government-run Taiji association, and had the opportunities to meet and befriend the 4 big names in Chen style (CXW, CZL, WXA, ZTC) as well as some of their disciples. I've heard from one of CXW's indoor students that Chen's had chronic knee pain and other joint problems for years due to rigorous fajin and stomping training he underwent in his youth. He also warned him (behind closed doors) that fajin training is detrimental to health and mostly for show, and that he only does it when he's on tour or in front of the camera in order to impress people, especially his hordes of Western students. (The conversation took place over 10 years ago, and CXW has since had knee surgery.)

It's also public knowledge in Taiji circles in China that WXA has also had knee surgery, and that Chen Yu -- known for his powerful fajin -- had a minor stroke in 2013 and was bound to a wheelchair for a period of time before he finally regained his mobility.

Like you said, "In private the conversations were quite different then what the other students were told. If you If you get my drift."

C.J.W. wrote:

willie wrote:
Do you think that it would be in thin air if you went and stood in front of him? The other example that Windwalker keeps foolishly presenting to the board, is only because CXW was being nice. That guy would be dead.

Yikes....not another one of CXW's fajin demos.

Here's some food for thought: One of my teachers served as the secretary general of Taiwan's largest government-run Taiji association, and had the opportunities to meet and befriend the 4 big names in Chen style (CXW, CZL, WXA, ZTC) as well as some of their disciples. I've heard from one of CXW's indoor students that Chen's had chronic knee pain and other joint problems for years due to rigorous fajin and stomping training he underwent in his youth. He also warned him (behind closed doors) that fajin training is detrimental to health and mostly for show, and that he only does it when he's on tour or in front of the camera in order to impress people, especially his hordes of Western students. (The conversation took place over 10 years ago, and CXW has since had knee surgery.)

It's also public knowledge in Taiji circles in China that WXA has also had knee surgery, and that Chen Yu -- known for his powerful fajin -- had a minor stroke in 2013 and was bound to a wheelchair for a period of time before he finally regained his mobility.

Like you said, "In private the conversations were quite different then what the other students were told. If you If you get my drift."

So what you're trying to say is that 50 people didn't just see me at the last seminar using fajin powered applications in freestyle pushing hands. Boy, if what you're saying is true well then I might be the only one on the planet! Because I can use it right now! My teachers like the best, LOL!
, and this poor fool from gao bagua also just got the find out the hard way. LOL!
Now on to the second half. I think that I already told this board how dangerous training fajin is? My teacher has warned me about the dangers. They include Mini concussions, possible heart attack, possible stroke, and the list goes on. The real reason why they are saying that it is for show is only because they are putting out unnecessary power just for demonstrations.

Plenty of people who have good fa Jing have no problems from the training
It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it

wayne hansen wrote:Plenty of people who have good fa Jing have no problems from the training
It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it

Wrong again Wayne. I thought you were supposed to be some kind of expert or something? Because Chen Zhanglei told my Sifu about the health problems and requested that he back of the power. The reason why you are not saying that is because you do not have it.
Or even understand the basics of acquiring it. Who's Dancing in the Dark now Wayne?

Bob wrote:Published on Feb 1, 2008
Fu Zhongwen realizando ejercicios de fajing de Tai Chi Chuan estilo Yang tradicional.

Fu's son (Fu Shenyuan) doing line fa jin drills.

charles wrote:

Bob wrote:Published on Feb 1, 2008
Fu Zhongwen realizando ejercicios de fajing de Tai Chi Chuan estilo Yang tradicional.

Fu's son (Fu Shenyuan) doing line fa jin drills.

That fajin is very superficial. It is also not it. He is throwing a segmented arm and then stopping fast giving the illusion of a dantian powered strike. It's fake

C.J.W. wrote: I've heard from one of CXW's indoor students that Chen's had chronic knee pain and other joint problems for years due to rigorous fajin and stomping training he underwent in his youth.

To be clear, CXW stated that he was practicing on ice and slipped, injuring his knee. He tore the meniscus and had it repaired in San Diego. My training partner, a radiologist, looked at the X-rays of his knee and demonstrated for him - on a lemon - what the surgery would entail. He had the surgery done the following summer and was up and walking around in record time, literally.

He also warned him (behind closed doors) that fajin training is detrimental to health and mostly for show, and that he only does it when he's on tour or in front of the camera in order to impress people, especially his hordes of Western students.

He stated, privately, that after big fa jin demonstrations it usually takes him a couple of days to recover.

Feng, for reasons similar to what you mention, eliminated all foot stomping and, later in life, most explosive fa jin. Traditionalists suggest that beyond a certain age - around late 40's, early 50's - one needs to spend more time cultivating/preserving qi rather than expending it.

willie wrote:That fajin is very superficial. It is also not it.

Since we are so far off topic anyway, please post a few videos of those that you think demonstrate what you consider correct, that have "it".

charles wrote:

willie wrote:That fajin is very superficial. It is also not it.

Since we are so far off topic anyway, please post a few videos of those that you think demonstrate what you consider correct, that have "it".

no need to post any videos of anyone, I have it and know how to use it. I got lucky and found the right teacher

willie wrote: no need to post any videos of anyone, I have it and know how to use it. I got lucky and found the right teacher

So much for discussion and "exchange".