Make your push into a throw

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby Trick on Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:05 am

I too didn't knew about the two Rugby "styles" but I know about another "Rugby" they play down there in Wayne's world - "Aussie football" where the tackling methods can be somewhat high flying......then there is Gaelic football too.....many ways to kick a ball
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby everything on Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:25 am

I am pretty disappointed to report that my "push hands" skills in football/soccer have declined as I've focused on technical on-the-ball footwork. Need to add some of these skills back. It's a bit difficult to use as a side thing. I have made a larger person completely fall down by spinning with almost no contact, though. He really did throw himself. Most effortless throw I've done. ;D
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby johnwang on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:12 pm

Bao wrote:But what do when he gets up and attack again? Another throw and then one again? Here is the difference between combat and sports.

The combo that we are talking about here depend on "timing". If you can get hold of your opponent's leading leg, the timing will no longer be an issue. you can take your time to take him down and followed with knee to the groin or knee bar. If you can hold on one of your opponent's leg, when and how that you may attack his other leg will be up to you.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:25 pm

No matter what history AFL make up Aussie rules is galic football
They have had to modify throws in both rugby codes due to injury
You are not allowed to let your opponents feet go beyond the vertical or attack an opponent in the air
NFL has spectacular results due to the disbalances created by the helmet and heavy padding in the upper body
Rugby League players are much more grounded and have a lower centre of gravity
Most tackles are gang tackles meaning 2,3 or more players tackling the ball runner at one time while he tries to break through and get the ball to another player
In NFL the ball runner on most occasions submits to the tackle or runs out of bounds,in both rugby codes this means giving the ball to the opposition
In the early 90's Greg mullane assistant coach to warren Ryan one of the best rugby league coaches came and stayed with me and learnt a few of my pushing exercises and tried to get me to move back to Sydney to act as a trainer for Balmain.
The stuff they are doing now is far beyond anything I could have given them
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby everything on Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:40 pm

wayne hansen wrote:
In the early 90's Greg mullane assistant coach to warren Ryan one of the best rugby league coaches came and stayed with me and learnt a few of my pushing exercises and tried to get me to move back to Sydney to act as a trainer for Balmain.
The stuff they are doing now is far beyond anything I could have given them


It's hard to say, but some of your stuff maybe propagated quite a ways through to others then.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:15 pm

No most of the stuff is from BJJ and wrestling
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby wiesiek on Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:27 am

[quote="Trick"][quote="everything"]one more nice one from rugby

Image

@marvin, my previous comment was for this Trick`s post,
have no experience in rugby, or Maoris wrestling.
here >maori step< -rock- , is less obvious,

I was in similar situation once, but in the forest not on the playground, hopefully one on one situation.
Speakin` so:
I did kinda of seoinage without hands, what is very funny `cause seoinage is in the group of >hands throw < in judo.
Anyway, I just turned and lower a little beat my body under attacker, and then slightly lift .
His move filled all another points important for nice throw.
Look of his face , when he failed up front of me, was well worth 10 years of the trainings / It was long ago :) ,and he was almost twice of my size/
anyway
we are sidetracking Johns post
- make YOUR push...
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby wiesiek on Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:39 am

ps
not quite understand why this old CMC vid. you posted?
I do not arguing, that very hard push can send you away,
long,long way.
in fact you may even achivin` death from starvation while flyin`... ;)
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby wiesiek on Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:44 am

ah,
and to answer the main question easy way:
use your legs , dammed! :-*
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby marvin8 on Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:51 am

wiesiek wrote:
Trick wrote:
everything wrote:one more nice one from rugby

Image

@marvin, my previous comment was for this Trick`s post,
have no experience in rugby, or Maoris wrestling.
here >maori step< -rock- , is less obvious,

I was in similar situation once, but in the forest not on the playground, hopefully one on one situation.
Speakin` so:
I did kinda of seoinage without hands, what is very funny `cause seoinage is in the group of >hands throw < in judo.
Anyway, I just turned and lower a little beat my body under attacker, and then slightly lift .
His move filled all another points important for nice throw.
Look of his face , when he failed up front of me, was well worth 10 years of the trainings / It was long ago :) ,and he was almost twice of my size/
anyway
we are sidetracking Johns post
- make YOUR push...

Sorry. You said, "in the rugby clip" 8 posts down from the image. If you would have included the image as you did here or said "in the last rugby clip," I would have better understood.

I thought the professional rugby players handled the incoming force well, given it was at full speed, the rules and their objectives.

wiesiek wrote:ps
not quite understand why this old CMC vid. you posted?
I do not arguing, that very hard push can send you away,
long,long way.
in fact you may even achivin` death from starvation while flyin`... ;)

Because, I felt it was similar in handling the incoming force, other than sending attacker down to the ground. The rugby clip is at full speed with a non-compliant opponent; CMC's video is a demonstration.

What is your "understanding?"
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby johnwang on Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:17 am

wiesiek wrote:use your legs , dammed! :-*





Last edited by johnwang on Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby wiesiek on Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:57 pm

thank You for the demos , JW

@marvin ,
demoing endless pushes is pointless on the forum,
it my present understanding is, -joint-
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby marvin8 on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:19 am

wiesiek wrote:thank You for the demos , JW

@marvin ,
demoing endless pushes is pointless on the forum,
it my present understanding is, -joint-

Well, JW and Grandmaster Chang are "demoing" "pushes" and "push" is part of the subject and in the title of his thread. Is it your "present understanding" that they (JW's and Grandmaster Chang's demonstrations) are "pointless on the forum?" Apparently, JW's allergies are clearing up.

Also per other Shuai Chiaoist, pushing is an integral part of the art.

Excerpt from "The History And Origins Of Modern Chinese Shuai Chiao Kung Fu," https://www.lvshaolin.com/shuai_chiao/:
Las Vegas Shaolin wrote:Throwing techniques taught at the Las Vegas Kung Fu martial art school, use the principles of Yin and Yang, These principles rely on the natural, physical laws of balance.

These kung fu martial art techniques uproots and throws the opponent very quickly. Yin and Yang is the concept of opposite force acting in coordination with each other in order to form a balance In Shuai Chiao Chinese wrestling the opponent's own body position is used against him. Fast moving foot work and leg sweeps are combined with techniques that control the opponent's upper body. This creates a push / pull action that resembles the yin and yang symbol. For example, one might push on the opponents shoulder while sweeping his legs backward so that the upper body would go in one direction while the lower body would go in the opposite direction thus off balancing the opponent and taking him to the ground. These kung fu martial art techniques uproots and throws the opponent very quickly. The emphasis of these kung fu techniques are on absorbing and blending with an opponents own force or momentum and using this force to slam them to the ground. The ground or the earth will literally be a weapon that you can take with you wherever you go and is always available.
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:27 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby wiesiek on Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:55 am

ok,
if you really, really like go deep blue -
is GM Chang demoing the same "push" like CMC, in above examples ?
yes and no, :)
I love it!
we are diggin` in the deepest roots of the Chinese philosophy....

let`s agree, that push is like foreplay ,
important and basic,
BUT
it is only prelude in most of the real cases,
so
over-focusing here,- deadly mistake.
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Re: Make your push into a throw

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:34 am

wiesiek wrote:ok,
if you really, really like go deep blue -
is GM Chang demoing the same "push" like CMC, in above examples ?
yes and no, :)

The "push" difference and images have already been discussed.
Steve James wrote:John, the way I was taught, "An" (what is translated as "push") really means something more like "push down" or 'the action of' pushing down.
marvin8 wrote:Defender creates angle, makes contact, deceptively yields stiff arm while lowering level, pushes attacker (at dead angle) up, backwards and down (an), sending opponent to the ground. . . .

Because, I felt it was similar in handling the incoming force, other than sending attacker down to the ground.


wiesiek wrote:I love it!
we are diggin` in the deepest roots of the Chinese philosophy....

let`s agree, that push is like foreplay ,
important and basic,
BUT
it is only prelude in most of the real cases,
so
over-focusing here,- deadly mistake.

Push/pull is like yin/yang in "Chinese philosophy," as mentioned in the article. Is it your opinion that yin/yang (push/pull), JW, and GM Chang are "over-focusing here,- deadly mistake?"

marvin8 wrote:Also per other Shuai Chiaoist, pushing is an integral part of the art.

Excerpt from "The History And Origins Of Modern Chinese Shuai Chiao Kung Fu," https://www.lvshaolin.com/shuai_chiao/:
Las Vegas Shaolin wrote:Throwing techniques taught at the Las Vegas Kung Fu martial art school, use the principles of Yin and Yang, These principles rely on the natural, physical laws of balance.

These kung fu martial art techniques uproots and throws the opponent very quickly. Yin and Yang is the concept of opposite force acting in coordination with each other in order to form a balance In Shuai Chiao Chinese wrestling the opponent's own body position is used against him. Fast moving foot work and leg sweeps are combined with techniques that control the opponent's upper body. This creates a push / pull action that resembles the yin and yang symbol. For example, one might push on the opponents shoulder while sweeping his legs backward so that the upper body would go in one direction while the lower body would go in the opposite direction thus off balancing the opponent and taking him to the ground. These kung fu martial art techniques uproots and throws the opponent very quickly. The emphasis of these kung fu techniques are on absorbing and blending with an opponents own force or momentum and using this force to slam them to the ground. The ground or the earth will literally be a weapon that you can take with you wherever you go and is always available.
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