Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:03 am

windwalker wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFe_SiC ... e=youtu.be


Nice bike, liked your other one better had more character .
The intro while interesting is a little long. The city shots very nice and interesting.


If you could reduce it while keeping the interesting parts it might be better.

The sequence of events seems backwards. Just an opinion. It might be better to start with the sparring and then show how and whats being done at certain points, the kind and type of training that make it work.


You start out by saying the art is a combination of traditional movements but neglected to demo or explain the base movements.. A comparison of traditional work along with your work might help illustrate the differences.

it does look like whats called "chanabra" had to look it up. live and learn :-\

In Korea they have something called Kumdo, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_swordsmanship
which is like kendo but also different.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6uArhG0q18

The main difference seems to be the movement and distancing. The weapons used look lighter and more flexible. Reminds me of kendo with out the armor.

Recently hooked up with an old friend of mine, he collects, and teaches real chinese sword usage as part of his CMA teachings.
an old clip of him in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYRKCdr ... ata_player



Some of his collection in the back ground I'm sure you know what kind of weapons are shown...

Image

The way the old swords are used very different due the weapon itself.

All in all, a nice clip my recommendations are to tighten it up a little.

best of luck ;)


The other bike is resting in pieces.. :P But this Yamaha runs MUCH better.

Sorry that the video is so long. I added more nature and cultural stuff because of popular demand. I realise that it may be a bit distracting to some..

I still disagree that it's like Pochan, because of the reasons mentioned above, but I will admit that there are some similarities. They seem to favour long-reaching cuts as well and they are good at using their bodies to get out of the way, rather than blocking a lot (because they can't with those "swords"). I have experimented with real swords, though, and all of this stuff still works. It's just a bit slower due to the increased weight.

The clip you showed was of a weapons demo, not free fencing. I think that those are two entirely different things.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:26 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
The clip you showed was of a weapons demo, not free fencing. I think that those are two entirely different things.


They are, but the spirit is the same and dynamics of basic movements. In demos like these they are going at it
within a scripted frame work, the timing, distancing among other things must be correct for it to have any training value.


Arthur, my friend collects old CMA weapons from thousands of yrs back. Its nice to be able to feel and see
some of the very old blades of the past.


Image
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6464
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby jaime_g on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:42 am

GrahamB wrote:What sort of fencing do you teach Jamie?


Mainly german longsword and spanish rapier
Last edited by jaime_g on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:50 am

Pandrews1982 wrote:Props for the enthusiasm and it's a nice video overall but I see a lot of stuff I'd try to avoid in your video. I know you're very defensive and will likely respond to this with indignity but this is meant as honest criticism. I'm no sword master but do teach Chineseswordsmanship with a view to disciplined and structured practice including free sparring with full weight heavy swords (wood and metal) so I'm speaking from experience.

I did like the thrusts with the heavy bamboo at the beginning, nice tool and good control there...but with the ball you look a bit frantic and thrusts seem to glance off it a little. Less speed more haste, slower more accurate thrusts it looked rushed.

Then the sparring... looks quite undisciplined. Over cutting and over committing with cuts from out of range. Then the bit about holding the flat of the blade, well you hold the entire blade sharp edge too for a moment or so not just the flat.

Tips are constantly pointing away from the opponent but you do make a well timed thrust at 8.25. The other guy seems very hesitant. 8.37 shows you over extend massively and hit the ground the other guy should have been on top of you there but backed away due to your momentum then both of you hit the ground again!

There seems to be a lack of defensive movement, good evasion or deflecting/parrying. Maybe the padding and helmets reduce the feeling of needing to defend? I don't know but it shows a lack of training in solid deflecting methods and counters.

9mins on, more wild swings, bouncing around out of range without any real strategy.

The bout at the end is a little more disciplined but still scrappy with a lot of wild swings. The guy in black armour is more disciplined/reserved but doesn't seem to have a lot of skill right now, his approach I think is good though, using simple direct methods in the main part with less big wide swings (though he does make a few).

Overall I think there is too much emphasis on free sparring here before having mastered basic methods. A more restricted sparring what I'd be doing with you guys, slower maybe or with restricted techniques and a defined space to train within so that you can't back away too much and have to focus more on deflections. I'd be trying to get you to work at a slightly closer range and focus on being able to deal with the quick thrusts so that you feel confident to stay at a closer range. Then I'd also want to work on discipline, especially reducing the over cutting and keeping a threat on the opponent at all times.

To me and please don't take this the wrong way, you look like enthusiastic beginners with a lot of potential. You appear to be quick and strong and with some discipline in your cutting plus a little defense you could be really good!

Look, I'm defensive because all that I ever get on this forum is shit and I work my balls off almost every day, training hard and improving and take great offence to my hard work being compared to a children's game with floppy noodles, clearly in disrespect. Your criticisms, I can digest, and some of your points are fair.

I'll respond to your criticisms one by one. Bear with me to the end - it's not all defensive..

1) Yes, with the ball some of my thrusts were off. Honestly that was like the tenth take and I've been exhausted from training every single day for weeks to finish learning everything. Ideally, they shouldn't slide off like that. A number of them were decent thrusts, though. And when it came time to use them in the fencing later you could see that they connect. I think that sometimes doing it slower for accuracy is good, but doing it faster for speed can also be good. I can definitely see where you are coming from.

2) About holding the blade, my fingers were scrunched up, just grabbing on to the edge of the blade. Sometimes my hand will slide, of course, but I try my very best not to slice open my hand. During that bout there would have been instances where I did accidentally grab the blade, for sure. These are not techniques that I would use all the time, though, as my main goal in fencing has been to learn everything and be able to use it against a resisting opponent, so I'm not trying to defend as much as I'm trying to use everything, especially in front of my Master, so that he can make corrections. These are techniques for when the shit hits the fan - low percentage. I just want to learn everything before I leave China and I can choose what I want to use more later. OH! I just released that I should mention that we're assuming that the bottom fist or two of the blade isn't sharp!

3) About the over-extending techniques, that is a part of the style, influence from Tongbiquan (and I know that there are those of you that have made the same criticism of my unarmed sparring). There are some places where I over-over-extend, though, and I fully admit that I need to reign it in a bit more. Like I said, though, I am trying to work on some last details before I leave. In the video I explain that I was trying to use some high-level stuff on my Master, so he wasn't trying to attack me so much as making it hard for me to try to do a lot of stuff on him. In the part you mention I hit the ground once and the second time he hits the ground because I hit his arm. I didn't hit the ground twice. Look again.

4) About not seeing enough defensive movements I can't really agree. They are there, but fast. I am not fighting very conservatively, though. We tend to use a lot of evasive footwork and shenfa, though, which should also be considered defensive. Against my fellow disciple, towards the end of the clip, I am more conservative because I'm trying to win, whilst still experimenting a bit. He is conservative because he has decided that he hasn't been pursuing learning more techniques to use.

5) Regarding fighting more conservatively, I did make an effort to show some of that as well. There are several little strikes that I make on my opponent that are very effective, immediately followed by covering myself. I could have just used those the whole time and chipped away at my opponent, but I chose to use more fancy techniques for the video because it is more entertaining to watch and because I could get away with it (against this opponent). If all I was showing was those types of simple, but effective techniques a lot of people would lose interest. I hope that you can appreciate this. I spent a lot of time training defensive manouevres, but now I'm just focused on being able to use all of the tricks in the book. Note that I land a lot of techniques without getting hit myself, due to distancing and timing. At least a third of my training time (3.5-4 hours a day) is spent training basic techniques with heavy weapons. Another third is spent on semi-compliant partner work. The remaining third is fencing with a range of different people.

6) You are absolutely right that I could get in closer. That is exactly what I've been working on during my last two weeks of training here! That's kind of out of my comfort zone, but less and less so.

7) I think that it's a bit harsh to say that I look like an enthusiastic beginner. Some of the techniques, distancing, timing and footwork that I'm using here are pretty damn solid. I'm putting on a show. This isn't a fight to the death.. ;D I really hope that my responses to your criticisms above can change your mind, even if it's just a bit. I'll take what I can get.

In the end, the way that I fight is probably quite different to what most are used to, but it has been very effective against those that I have "crossed blades" with, which includes XYLHQ Dao, Taijijian and Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu (not sure which one it was, possibly both). I look forward to how my stuff stacks up against HEMA and Kendo. I really wish that I didn't have to put a million disclaimers on everything. It is so difficult to please everybody. I'm working hard and realise that I still have many areas that need improving, but cut me some slack, okay?

I'd like to see a video of what you think is good fencing, though, to compare.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:53 am

windwalker wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
The clip you showed was of a weapons demo, not free fencing. I think that those are two entirely different things.


They are, but the spirit is the same and dynamics of basic movements. In demos like these they are going at it
within a scripted frame work, the timing, distancing among other things must be correct for it to have any training value.


Arthur, my friend collects old CMA weapons from thousands of yrs back. Its nice to be able to feel and see
some of the very old blades of the past.


Image

That's true. Real fencing requires a lot of deception and strategy, though. ;)

I forgot to say in my previous reply that I purposefully did not include a lot of technique descriptions in my video, because that is what lessons are for. I'll let people judge for themselves when they meet me.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby GrahamB on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:56 am

jaime_g wrote:
GrahamB wrote:What sort of fencing do you teach Jamie?


Mainly german longsword and spanish rapier


Sounds good. Who would I search for on Youtube to see a good example of either of those?
Stable Genius.
Winky Faces Make Your Texts Sarcastic, Scientists Say
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11158
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:57 am

jaime_g wrote:
GrahamB wrote:What sort of fencing do you teach Jamie?


Mainly german longsword and spanish rapier


I though Klonk might comment. But, jaime_g, I hear what do you think of this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulakgCl ... r_embedded

And, would you compare jian technique more to a saber than a rapier? I.e., which techniques would work better with a jian? And, what do you think of closing and grappling in these situations.?
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16765
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:01 am

jaime_g wrote:Sorry Maarten, but I've been teaching european fencing for more than a decade and I cant see a good fencing work here.


I know you are trying, you are serious, you do sparring, you avoid the onlyforms shit that saturates CMA...but it's very very poor fencing.

How is it poor? You have been teaching something that you read from a book for a decade. I have been learning from a master that learned it from his master/s and so on for four years (less for swordsmanship). If I hit my opponents and don't get hit it is working. It may not be beautiful all the time, but it works. I have seen really good HEMA - and also really shitty HEMA. There is zero quality control.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:11 am

Steve James wrote:
jaime_g wrote:
GrahamB wrote:What sort of fencing do you teach Jamie?


Mainly german longsword and spanish rapier


I though Klonk might comment. But, jaime_g, I hear what do you think of this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulakgCl ... r_embedded

And, would you compare jian technique more to a saber than a rapier? I.e., which techniques would work better with a jian? And, what do you think of closing and grappling in these situations.?

I've seen that video before. It's not bad at all. I imagine that the instructor is better. Those sticks are SUPER light, though. There isn't a massive difference between that and what I do other than that we use both one and two-handed techniques. I'm not against heavier wooden weapons, but I can't afford the armour. I am against weapons that are way, way too light, though, like these.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby jaime_g on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:11 am

GrahamB wrote:
jaime_g wrote:
GrahamB wrote:What sort of fencing do you teach Jamie?


Mainly german longsword and spanish rapier


Sounds good. Who would I search for on Youtube to see a good example of either of those?


Good spanish rapier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75oal4iKImU

Good german longsword

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW45iM3f8oE
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:21 am

The rapier video was interesting, though a bit slow. We can't fight like that with our swords nor could they fight like us. Different methods for different swords.

Was not impressed with the longsword stuff. A lot of that just would not work in actual fighting unless conditions were 100% ideal - which is very rare, indeed. Also, no fencing. Show us good longsword fencing. That should be more similar to what I do, but with less single-handed techniques used.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:28 am

Well, imo, the problem with weight is that really good cutting swords --that might actually be useful swinging, rather than pointing-- are fairly heavy and, yep, you will need protection. The fact that you need protection with even lighter weapons confirms that point.

Yet, we know that even weapons of the proper weight wouldn't cut through heavy leather or wood slat armor. So, the problem is that technique will be far from the way the weapon was actually used. That is, unless it was used that way.

Anyway, I have to run right now, but it would be interesting to talk about historical jian technique. Yeah, Scott Rodell has done research. I have one of his swords. And, don't get me started on the scabbard issue.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16765
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby jaime_g on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:35 am

Steve James wrote:
jaime_g wrote:
GrahamB wrote:What sort of fencing do you teach Jamie?


Mainly german longsword and spanish rapier


I though Klonk might comment. But, jaime_g, I hear what do you think of this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulakgCl ... r_embedded

And, would you compare jian technique more to a saber than a rapier? I.e., which techniques would work better with a jian? And, what do you think of closing and grappling in these situations.?



All seem newbies trying his best, but again it's very poor fencing

I would compare jian to sideswords (kind of early rapier, broad blades with good cutting power).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ChWmvBaWv4

European nineteenth-century sabers base their game on their hilt, so little differences besides "common" fencing work. Chinese dao is closer to messers and dussack, a kind of late medieval-early modern sabers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FabCfhtcKAk

Closing and grappling are common to all fencing methods, most styles use the same techniques to disarm, strike with the hilt or pommel, throw, etc. It's very important to learn when you should close the distance and when not. Trying to avoid grappling usually leads to doble strikes, trying to seek grappling too much leads to sloppy footwork.

How is it poor?


You simple dont have good fencing basics, there are holes almost every time you try something with your weapon, and almost every time you step

You have been teaching something that you read from a book for a decade.


True. I dont want to get into a dick-measuring contest, but I've been lucky enough to share, fight and learn together several hundreds of guys from almost twenty different countries. I've done my homework and test my book stuff against living traditions from FMA, CMA, JMA, olympic fencing and other HEMA styles. I've learnt from hundreds of mistakes and I'm very careful when I look at fencing methods.

I have been learning from a master that learned it from his master/s and so on for four years (less for swordsmanship).


I dont doubt it. But having a master only means that you have a master. Doesnt say anything about the quality of the fencing taught.

If I hit my opponents and don't get hit it is working. It may not be beautiful all the time, but it works.


A lot of things work against untrained or poorly trained people.

I have seen really good HEMA - and also really shitty HEMA. There is zero quality control.


Completely true
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby jaime_g on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:37 am

MaartenSFS wrote:The rapier video was interesting, though a bit slow. We can't fight like that with our swords nor could they fight like us. Different methods for different swords.

Was not impressed with the longsword stuff. A lot of that just would not work in actual fighting unless conditions were 100% ideal - which is very rare, indeed. Also, no fencing. Show us good longsword fencing. That should be more similar to what I do, but with less single-handed techniques used.



All the stuff shown on the longsword video works on sparring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYuWEZMTI3s
jaime_g
Wuji
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:34 am

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:40 am

That's true. Don't forget that even if you aren't cut, there will still be blunt force trauma, though, and the hand is easily immobilised. In my unarmed and armed fighting a lot of the techniques are made better by the way that I've conditioned my body and the martial-specific strength that I have attained. What looks like it lacks finesse (and remember that the Dao is a more crude instrument than the Jian is) makes up for it with pure force and trickery - and a good measure of accuracy. I feel like our training swords strike a good balance between being dangerous enough to not want to get hit by, but not requiring a huge amount of protective equipment. TRUST ME. YOU FEEL IT. I sent an opponent that weighs over 95kg FLYING backwards on his arse with a thrust to the chest today. They are rigid and sturdy enough!
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests