Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:50 pm

Well fuck me, I misinterpreted it.. I'm looking forward to meeting people in person back in the West to avoid this sort of thing... ;D
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby wetmarble on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:13 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
wetmarble wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Not being rude helped. You posting videos helped me to understand where you are coming from. Some of these other clowns are just being obnoxious and have yet to offer any solid arguments for their positions, which I demand if they are going to dismiss my stuff. I think that kind of attitude is toxic. I'm not a turn the other cheek kind of person. I put a lot of work into this video and my training in general and I will not tolerate rude behaviour. I'm expecting common decency. Is that too much to ask?


I find it exceedingly ironic that you speak about expecting common decency and not tolerating rude behavior, while simultaneously being rude and lacking common decency.

If you treat people with respect, you will often find that they return the favor to you.

Please point out where I was initiating any rude behaviour.


Is it only rude if you were the one who initiated it? Is it not disrespectful to call people "clowns" and "obnoxious"?

In my opinion, we should be respectful and decent all of the time, regardless of any insults that have been hurled at us.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:45 pm

wetmarble wrote:Is it only rude if you were the one who initiated it? Is it not disrespectful to call people "clowns" and "obnoxious"?

In my opinion, we should be respectful and decent all of the time, regardless of any insults that have been hurled at us.

Fair enough.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:52 pm

http://my.tv.sohu.com/us/63312182/31042461.shtml

Looks quite a bit different from his Jian form. I wonder why...
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Finny on Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:20 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Well fuck me, I misinterpreted it.. I'm looking forward to meeting people in person back in the West to avoid this sort of thing... ;D


Yep. No worries. I did (and do) say your 'fencing' is exactly that - a game of hitting with sticks, rather than swordsmanship. While I can understand a defensive reaction, as I said before you've been here long enough and repeated this pattern a number of times.

I study an old koryu system of kenjutsu (among other things) - about half of the techniques are designed around armoured swordsmanship; we aim for the gaps in the armour, so kendo style sparring is incompatible with the movements we are trying to train. Among the remainder of the unarmoured curriculum are a number of techniques which similarly, but for different reasons, are incompatible with the type of sparring you do. Often people viewing kenjutsu kata demonstrated in public believe that the practitioners train in a rote manner, effectively a two person dance where both partners know each step and have practiced them countless times before. The reality is of course that the forms are designed to be both tested and broken; when a technique is performed without adequate structural integrity or the correct timing etc the senior practitioner is expected to demonstrate this, physically. The senior may at any time 'break' the pattern of the form to throw in any random technique they feel like using, and the junior is expected to react appropriately. There are innumerable teachings that have been handed down through generations that illuminate and bring life to the techniques we practice. It's a different approach, with different goals. As I said, I also love combat sports and whacking things (and people) with sticks - great fun, and I wish you all the best with it.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Pandrews1982 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:31 am

Laodan,

the san cai jian routine shown in the video...IMO it's ridiculous performance stuff.

We have to understand that there are three kind of branches in CMA stuff today there is the practical traditional, there is the performance traditional, and there is the modern/modern performance. There has always been an aspect to performance in martial arts. The old teachers couldn't make a living just teaching martial arts so they did other jobs like labouring, body guarding/security, and street performance. There are a number of old videos from the early 1900s which show sword dances or street martial arts in China and some of it is similar stuff to the routines shown in the video.

The blades being used are light and floppy too which is always an indication that the routine is going to be a performance. There will be some practical methods in there but they're likely mixed in with crowd pleasers.

Many arts incorporated weapons styles and routines into their syllabus over time even if they were not originally part of the style. The Four Roads Miao Dao form is an example which is present in a number of arts such as Bajiquan, some Xing Yi schools, some schools of Southern mantis and more. That San Cai jian form I think is not traditionally anything to do with the core Xing Yi system but that it's been picked up by a school and added and they've added an unrelated name associated with the style to sort of legitimise it.

it could also be a creation from the early 20th century when the modern koushu and wushu movements looked to first standardize martial arts and then strip them of the martial aspects to become performance oriented.

A lot of the standardized xing yi forms I believe are later creations which have stuck as there became a more performance related aspect to the art and less requirement to use the art for practical means. also with anything when you teach a small group you can show nuance but with a larger group you can't spend as much time with individuals so rather than develop a person's individual skill yuo end up teaching the gross movements to develop a general understanding. As Xing Yi grew in popularity particularly in the early 20th century I think that the public teaching was centred more around the linking sequences and movements and less around the principles and core strategy of the art. So you see a decline in the deeper detail being transmitted.

The Chinese Sword application video. Not particularly impressed, swords are light weight again - really would be nice if people started using realistic training tools. The partner freezes constantly even when in good positions and doesn't know how to respond. A few of the techniques shown would maybe be legitimate but without a skilled partner to work with it's pointless, just tricks and showing off without any resistance.

I like the sojutsu video :)

The vast majority of "self defense" is bullshit. Trying to incorporate sword into this is futile and would be delusional. Would you carry a sword with you? (illegal in many countries and almost all states in the USA). Oh you could pick up a stick though - have you ever been mugged in a forest? oh there's a handy stick I'll bend down to pick it up and "BLAM" you get kicked in the head or stabbed in the back. Maybe if you use a walking stick or cane you'd be okay but if you're a strapping young man then it may be a bit out of place to carry a cane. I'm sure there are loads of paranoid self defensers that would pay for such bovine fecal matter though
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:04 am

You are entitled to your opinion, but all of the Kenjutsu that I have seen has been about how to wear your uniform, etiquette and training with real or wooden swords against compliant partners and looking really serious - the focus being on the art of it all. I don't think that any martial art can be learned this way and still be practical for fighting against a fully resisting opponent, full contact. Edge alignment is great, but every time that I've picked up a real sword I've been attacking with the same angles. Learning how to cut perfect isn't that useful if you can't use it on your opponent.

I have been training with someone that studied Iaijutsu for many years and all he wants to do is the kind of drills that you are talking about. Sometimes he gets the better of me when we do that, but as soon as we take a step further back and actually fight I destroy him almost every time. Things like feints, combinations, Tingjin, explosiveness and many, many other things simply can't be trained in his way. He was meant to move to Japan in two months but has now decided to give it up and learn from my Master instead.

I train with several much heavier weapons than the ones we fence with so when I picked up a real Miaodao yesterday I could EASILY apply any of the techniques that I've learned with it. I can apply at least 90% of the art with a stick (or wooden sword) and that's more than enough to bash someone's brains in or kill them or injure them in other ways. I'll be ready for it too, as that is exactly what I train, whether they are (or I am) holding something sharp or not.

Shanzhaidao is a sword art for use against unarmoured opponents. I doubt that we will ever see armoured combat again on this planet, but a Dao is heavy enough to deliver a lot of blunt force trauma against an armoured opponent, especially if one has done the strength training that the weapon requires.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:06 am

Pandrews1982 wrote:The vast majority of "self defense" is bullshit. Trying to incorporate sword into this is futile and would be delusional. Would you carry a sword with you? (illegal in many countries and almost all states in the USA). Oh you could pick up a stick though - have you ever been mugged in a forest? oh there's a handy stick I'll bend down to pick it up and "BLAM" you get kicked in the head or stabbed in the back. Maybe if you use a walking stick or cane you'd be okay but if you're a strapping young man then it may be a bit out of place to carry a cane. I'm sure there are loads of paranoid self defensers that would pay for such bovine fecal matter though


The fact of the matter is that most people are going to die in a self defence situation unless they work as hard as their instructor to get to a good level of martial capability - and even then there are no guarantees..
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Pandrews1982 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:17 am

The matter of fact is most instructors would die in a self defense scenario too. Don't get in the situation to begin with :)
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:45 am

True, but that's part of the knowledge, how to avoid trouble and to be aware of our surroundings. 8-)
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:29 am

[quote]The vast majority of "self defense" is bullshit. Trying to incorporate sword into this is futile and would be delusional./quote]

When it comes to swordplay, yep, there's almost no chance that one will use one for self defense. The exceptions to this are where blades (machetes, pangas, etc) are used in daily life. I.e., probably none of the people who practice martial arts (like xy, tcc, or any cma) have ever killed anyone or anything intentionally with a jian. That goes for all of HEMA too. It's all play or sport.

Regardless of whether it's good swordmanship or not, the swingy stick stuff is probably more practical because it's just more natural. It's the way most people would react under pressure. A stick doesn't need to be nearby; one can always carry one of some sort. The likelihood of using it would still be low; and the likelihood of facing an attacker with a stick is almost non-existent.

One could argue that it's pointless to learn to use a jian for self defense. However, flame if you like, but I think that the performance stuff has a lot of practical benefits in terms of physical training. There are also ways that connect swordplay to empty hand work. My point is that that was the purpose of training long after the use of jians.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:06 am

MaartenSFS wrote:You are entitled to your opinion, but all of the Kenjutsu that I have seen has been about how to wear your uniform, etiquette and training with real or wooden swords against compliant partners and looking really serious - the focus being on the art of it all. I don't think that any martial art can be learned this way and still be practical for fighting against a fully resisting opponent, full contact. Edge alignment is great, but every time that I've picked up a real sword I've been attacking with the same angles. Learning how to cut perfect isn't that useful if you can't use it on your opponent.

I have been training with someone that studied Iaijutsu for many years and all he wants to do is the kind of drills that you are talking about. Sometimes he gets the better of me when we do that, but as soon as we take a step further back and actually fight I destroy him almost every time. Things like feints, combinations, Tingjin, explosiveness and many, many other things simply can't be trained in his way. He was meant to move to Japan in two months but has now decided to give it up and learn from my Master instead.
.

What are the specific characteristics of your fencing practice that makes it into Chinese swordsmanship? As I understand you don't do any forms practice that usually seem to be a common practice when learning the Chinese blades, is it called Chinese swordsmanship because the intention is if it was used for real we'd use Chinese style swords?
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:19 am

Absolutely, but if society collapses fencing skill will be worth more than boxing.

When I recently did some unarmed sparring my footwork, distancing and timing had improved dramatically. My strength had also increased tremendously. I also could fight equally comfortably in a left or right lead hand stance. That's got to be worth something!
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:25 am

Trick wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:You are entitled to your opinion, but all of the Kenjutsu that I have seen has been about how to wear your uniform, etiquette and training with real or wooden swords against compliant partners and looking really serious - the focus being on the art of it all. I don't think that any martial art can be learned this way and still be practical for fighting against a fully resisting opponent, full contact. Edge alignment is great, but every time that I've picked up a real sword I've been attacking with the same angles. Learning how to cut perfect isn't that useful if you can't use it on your opponent.

I have been training with someone that studied Iaijutsu for many years and all he wants to do is the kind of drills that you are talking about. Sometimes he gets the better of me when we do that, but as soon as we take a step further back and actually fight I destroy him almost every time. Things like feints, combinations, Tingjin, explosiveness and many, many other things simply can't be trained in his way. He was meant to move to Japan in two months but has now decided to give it up and learn from my Master instead.
.

What are the specific characteristics of your fencing practice that makes it into Chinese swordsmanship? As I understand you don't do any forms practice that usually seem to be a common practice when learning the Chinese blades, is it called Chinese swordsmanship because the intention is if it was used for real we'd use Chinese style swords?

We don't do any forms practise but my Master developed a set of 12 basic sword techniques to line drill, like the 12 animals of Xingyiquan, many of which are trained both single and double hand. Then there are another eight techniques to drill with Baguazhang footwork, some of which are also trained with one or two hands. We do differentiate between the sword and staff because with the staff you can use both ends the same and slide your hands around. That being said a staff lacks a hand guard, so that changes things as well. It not being sharp changes things as well. In my video there are two places where I made a draw cut, one with my Master being a very clean example. That can't be done with a staff. Still, my Master prefers the staff for unarmoured combat. Unfortunately there's no safe way to train it right now.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:13 am

Nyuck nyuck nyuck.

I have been in more than a handful of defense situations, and I'm still here. Sure, there is a chance that I might not be, but my training played a part (so did luck). To be sure, most of them I could have walked away from. But, I have dealt with unarmed, armed, and drugged out people. I know there are a few people on this board who have done the same: especially the pros.

Maarten, what you are doing is awesome. You are pursuing your dream and going all in. You don't know me, but this is what I have always done. It has its pitfalls, but I feel it is the way to go if you want to make your mark. I have always and continue to respect you for that. I also have always really loved your photos you share as well as your experiences. What a great life and experience, despite the obvious hardships.

My critiques stem from that fact that you simply gauge yourself too highly. Of course, everyone has room to improve, and you have also learned some stuff, but your time put in is not really that over the top compared to others on this board. And yes, I can easly speak of myself here.

I think what you are doing is great. I also enjoy the stuff you share. But, you should have a more realistic notion of where you stand. I don't regularly train anymore, but I would wreak your universe. You are not the best, or even close to the best, posting on this page. Keep yourself in check.

PS, anyone heard from Enrique? ;D
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