Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:33 am

GrahamB wrote:Just as an aside, is there any way we can all stop using the phrase "my master..."

I was accepted as a disciple of my Master and he has treated me like a son for many years now, teaching me for free, inviting me over to celebrate the festivals, going on trips together, even teaching me how to cook when I went through a rough divorce. It's an ancient Chinese tradition. It doesn't mean just "teacher" like in the West. Out of respect I will continue to call him what he deserves to be called.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:36 am

I apologize for misspelling your name.

Perhaps I've reacted the same way because people like you keep trolling my threads.


What if he wasn't trolling, but just giving his opinion? Finny doesn't just go around insulting people.

There was no content in your discussion. You have offered absolutely nothing.


Are you really so sure that you have offered anything resembling content?

such as flawless timing and footwork


0.0

constant pressure...MORE THAN YOU'VE EVER HAD IN YOUR LIFE


:o ;D 8-)

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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:37 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
GrahamB wrote:Just as an aside, is there any way we can all stop using the phrase "my master..."

I was accepted as a disciple of my Master and he has treated me like a son for many years now, teaching me for free, inviting me over to celebrate the festivals, going on trips together, even teaching me how to cook when I went through a rough divorce. It's an ancient Chinese tradition. It doesn't mean just "teacher" like in the West. Out of respect I will continue to call him what he deserves to be called.


Master is not a Chinese word.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby GrahamB on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:39 am

Maarten - what do you call him in Chinese - "Sifu"?
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:41 am

Apology accepted.

Yes, I at least offered thorough arguments.

So I should call him my Shifu every time? Doesn't bother me.

I felt that it was an insult and most people in my shoes would.

Yes, flawless timing and footwork - in some instances. I stand by that. Those weren't rehearsed. That was off the cuff. I can do it all day, any time.

By the way, I can't reply to any PMs. They end up in the out box and are not being sent. WTF!
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:10 am

GrahamB wrote:Maarten - what do you call him in Chinese - "Sifu"?

Here Taxidrivers are the Shifu's
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:37 am

Different character. This Shifu is written with "父", which means father.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Pandrews1982 on Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:14 am

Maarten,

I think one of the things here that people take issue with is that you don't take any criticism at all but simply go on the defensive and make excuses or state how great you "think" you are - flawless timing and footwork... yeah.

I know it's difficult when you might have trained a long time and think your shit is great to then be told hey there's more. It's like climbing a mountain and you are going up the steep cliff thinking you're about to hit the top and as you reach the edge you see there is another cliff to climb. That was me back in 2011. I'd trained years with my Xing Yi teacher, who himself is very good emptyhand and weapons, but I saw some of the discipline and skill which I didn't have and thought hey there is a lot more to learn. And I had to put pride aside and start things again.

One of the things I really try to instill in my students is self reflection and criticism. Most of my guys probably think they are not as good as they actually are because they analyse their faults and are not looking for praise and adulation (which your responses seem to be looking for). A true martial artist has a thick skin and takes criticism, reflects on it and works harder. Sometimes you will get criticized by haters and you will just have to ignore them, other times by people with no understanding of context or true ability and their comments will not be valid. Sometimes however people will criticise with valid points and you should take heed rather than dismiss everything.

FWIW the reason I try to close distance in my video is, and if you watch the tournament video I also posted - if you attack from out of distance it takes more time and your opponent can read what is going to happen and counter you on the way in. This applies to emptyhand work too, if you attack too far out you get sniped on the way in. Which was a major criticism I have of your original example, both your opponents seemed to lack the ability to take advantage of this or were intimidated by the power of your attacks - a good fencer would not be so forgiving.

Is there danger to getting in close - yes some. Could someone reach and poke you in the eye - well that's what you train to avoid. Try it on someone trying to cut at full power and speed - I do, all the time. I've competed in 2 European tournaments and do competitive sparring (not the light sparring in the video) fairly regularly with partners much bigger than myself.

I also want to say I get hit a lot in training. Lots of times because I'm working on trying to do things and they don't work you can see this in the sparring video. In my definition sparring is the testing ground, there is some danger and competitiveness but it's not a duel to the death so you have the ability to experiment. Invest in loss, also invest in humility. We don't have to be perfect neither me nor you and there is great wealth to be had in developing and growing from interaction with others.

Cutting is difficult so being close can actually be safer. I'd be perfectly happy to step inside your blade with a thick jacket on even if you had a live blade because at close range getting a cut through a jacket would be really difficult. You need clearance to perform a decent cut so crowding the blade edge can be safer than standing back and allowing someone to swing at you. So if you had 6 inches to cut me in I'd be quite confident you wouldn't get through my jacket but 6 inches to thrust - I'd be likely be dead. Therefore close in and thrust/stab is dangerous.

If you're playing an outside game then the hand and arm become the target. But most people still reach in for the torso when it's not appropriate. There is a technique "Ge" which is really effective at cutting down an overreaching attack so long as you don't back away from it through intimidation.

As for doing things differently, some things but the overall approach of the sparring is the same as I would use now. Work in to an appropriate range before attacking, do not press the attack if it is well covered (or you walk into counters), do not overcut, maintain threat to prevent duifang entering. What i would do better are my basic defensive parries, getting a better position in the parry etc. The strategy is there the skills need polishing.

As for targeting the legs. Yes we have this too but it's done when appropriate.

Those guys are good, but even they hit each other.


No one is good enough to never get hit. I think you like that one because it's fast and more dynamic. You don't have to go fast to beat someone often I beat my partners because they go fast and leave an opening and they walk into my thrust or cut - they beat themselves with their own speed/athleticism.

In almost none of the videos was there any explosive movement or footwork because that requires athleticism that I doubt many possess...Some of you are being filthy trolls and unless you show some really impressive videos of YOU fencing I could care less about anything else you have to say.


Really?

I respect what you do and would never say that you lacked even fencing basics or that you are playing a game. That would be extremely rude


When I first met Scott Rodell he said to me that I lacked basics, that I overswung and attacked from too far away. I didn't see that as rude but as honest criticism from a more experienced practitioner. At first I thought "WTF i've trained really hard and done pretty good" but I took it on board and I've worked on those issues and am still working on them.

I could have buried my head in the sand, sulked because Scott wasn't impressed and didn't give me a gold star or a like or whatever and gone back to swinging with my mates and playing tag with sticks. But I didn't and I hope that you get over yourself and take on board some of the comments some of us have presented here.

Your bar is set low because that's all you've been exposed to, start looking higher. It's like playing basketball in the park and beating all the local kids then saying you're an NBA Allstar, but if you ever did get to play a pro you'd be trashed.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:42 am

I think that if the two of us met we'd agree about most things. I can assure you that my bar has not been set low and that I haven't reached it yet. Like I said, I think that your initial criticism was a bit harsh, but I took most of it. Not being rude helped. You posting videos helped me to understand where you are coming from. Some of these other clowns are just being obnoxious and have yet to offer any solid arguments for their positions, which I demand if they are going to dismiss my stuff. I think that kind of attitude is toxic. I'm not a turn the other cheek kind of person. I put a lot of work into this video and my training in general and I will not tolerate rude behaviour. I'm expecting common decency. Is that too much to ask?

I'm not looking for all of you to kowtow to me. I know that I'm far from perfect. I never claimed anything else. There was some good stuff in my video, though, that I'm really happy with. I'm a positive sort of guy. One needs to be to keep training as hard as I have, living in third world conditions for eleven years. Whether or not you agree with me or not I know what I need to do to get better and my journey is far from over. It's just a shame that trolling arseholes have made me no longer wish to share it.

I like that video because it's realistic and they are well-matched. I have people walk into my thrusts all the time too, especially total beginners. Training slowly and methodically is a good thing. You can drill many more difficult techniques that way. Doing it against a fully resisting opponent at full speed that is trying to get you first is another matter entirely. You are absolutely right that that athleticism can be used against them. In my video there are two instances where that happens. I still need to train explosiveness, though, and I'm learning to read my opponents better all the time. If you train it you have it to use or not to. If you don't then you are limiting your options (not saying that you don't have explosiveness. I wouldn't make that assumption based on one video).

As for doing leg hits when they're appropriate, that can be said of anything. If you set them up with one or several steps or with proper timing and footwork it isn't all that difficult.

Your point about being willing to take a cut is interesting. I was referring to thrusts as well, of course, but all of this depends on what kind of clothing or armour that the opponent is wearing and this will affect the techniques and strategies used. Our fencing assumes that there is none - perhaps light leather gloves. In my video I land some very powerful cuts to the chest and head. On an unarmoured opponent with a blunt sword those could be lethal. I regularly make very powerful cuts to the hands and arms as well, because I train A LOT of Gongfa for this specific reason. Some of them don't need to cut to do damage and many are on the under or inside of the wrist, which is more dangerous for them.

Just to be clear, since this is typing, I don't want to come off as disrespectful by sharing my thoughts with you. I think that what you say has merit, but some of it conflicts with what I've learned and train. There may be valid reasons for that such as what they're wearing, the weapon, etc. The more we talk, the more that becomes clear.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby GrahamB on Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:21 am

Looks like you're having a fun time to me Maarten. Keep at it!

(What's wrong with looking like "less formal kendo" anyway??)

I was watching a Dog Brothers video just now - that's messy as hell. Fighting looks like fighting.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby GrahamB on Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:22 am

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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Pandrews1982 on Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:49 am

Maarten,

I think with the right attitude you're going to do well and improve a lot, don't rise to the bait of trolls and get defensive. If there are valid points address them if someone is legitimately a troll just ignore them. It's difficult but I've had to learn to do it. I get lots of trolling all the time on my xing yi videos. Either I'm hurting people and it's too harsh on my partners or I'm not extreme enough and it wouldn't work on the street (still looking for this street with all the fighting happening on it...) so you'll never please anyone.

I think playing with a real live blade would be good for your practice. As I said try cutting a tatami with a t-shirt around it. Cut from different distances with different intent, different angles. See what actually works.

We assume that the hands are unprotected. Looking at historical armour, there is little protection provided to the hands. Sometime the brigandine of the Qing bannermen extended over the wrist for some protection but it's nothing like the European gauntlets. So yes hand is legitimate and a strike even if not a cut may be bad news. But it still has to have force in the strike.

I didn't say I would take a cut though. I don't particularly want to be cut at all. But if you put a sharp blade a couple of inches from me and I'm wearing a thick wool sweater and I say go on cut me without pulling back to swing I doubt there are many people who could do it. It's physics not skill. A drawing cut or a pushing cut might go through the cloth but then they are not likely to do a lot of damage. A straight hack would do nothing I bet. It's about understanding what the weapon is actually capable of. So I wouldn't say I'd stand and take a rain of blows going toe to toe (like in the dog brothers video) but there are situations where you can get in a position which would nullify the effectiveness of the weapon.

Also note that when you have a live blade and so does your partner then you become much more reserved and less wild swings because one mistake and you're dead. Those guys in the video doing sword and buckler also do sparring without protection using sharp swords and their sparring looks almost the same with and without sharps. I think it's good fencing and they always show good control.

As for Dog Brothers I don't particularly like a lot of it because they just carry on through multiple hits, hits which with heavy blades and no armour would do serious damage.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby LaoDan on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:38 am

Pandrews1982 wrote:Here is a video from I think a few years ago now and it's me in red with chest guard sparring lightly with one of my students. We're just playing around really it's not competitive sometimes in this video I hold back and I'm also trying things out and for part of the video we also spar left handed. This is of course jianfa and not daofa so there are some differences but the principles remain the same. Even now looking back at this I see lots of mistakes in myself. But you might see that distancing here is more gauged than in your video. Cuts and thrusts are for the most part reserved and that's why at times it is difficult for either of us to enter - because a threat is maintained.


Pandrews,

I only have a modest amount of free sparring practice (mainly moderate speed and power, or less, with control emphasized, and without protection, but with historically accurate weight/balance wooden jian and dao), but there are several observations from your sparring practice video, and other posts on this thread, that I would be interested in your comments.

Scott’s background is primarily Yang style Taijiquan, whereas yours seems to be primarily Xingyiquan. How does style background affect your approach to swordsmanship (TJQ vs. XYQ)? Your approach comes closer to how I strive to practice (TJQ) than does Maarten’s, but he comes from another style that seems to emphasize the sniping into range to attack and jumping away for defense. Your approach appears to emphasize deflecting/controlling the other’s blade in order to defend and to create opportunities to slip past their blade in order to attack them. In other words, your approach seems to generally include attacks “from contact” whereas Maarten’s are primarily from non-contact (although sometimes he will beat away the opposing sword in order to create an opening, bind or press their blade, etc.). Your approach seems to be consistent with what I have been taught for TJQ (i.e., emphasizing “from-contact” control and attacks/counters).

As I was taught, the grip of the hand on the handle of the jian should form another “joint” (it is different for dao where the grip is less changeable). It is hard for me to see any of the grip changeability that I am used to in your video. Is this not a principle in your style? Perhaps it is due to the lacrosse gloves that you wear for protection, but it seems like the grip is held fairly constant with your wrist being the primary joint for manipulating the sword (vs. wrist + hand). Note that I do not attribute it to the sword used (weight/balance...) as I also practice with a Graham Cave jian (though without gloves).

I primarily agree with your evaluations of Maarten’s video, although I have less experience/skill, and our differing approaches make it difficult for me to comment on his video. Thanks for posting your insights.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Finny on Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:23 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Some of these other clowns are just being obnoxious and have yet to offer any solid arguments for their positions, which I demand if they are going to dismiss my stuff. I think that kind of attitude is toxic. I'm not a turn the other cheek kind of person. I put a lot of work into this video and my training in general and I will not tolerate rude behaviour. I'm expecting common decency. Is that too much to ask?


Who here has dismissed your stuff? Graham said it looked like less formal kendo - I agreed with him (as did a few others) - and you threw a tantrum.

The solid argument for my position - that you are hitting each other with padded sticks, not fighting with swords... is that you are hitting each other with padded sticks.

GrahamB wrote:Looks like you're having a fun time to me Maarten. Keep at it!

(What's wrong with looking like "less formal kendo" anyway??)


Exactly what I said - don't be such an asshole Graham, haven't you been reading the thread?


Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Hey Finny, I think I have misremembered, but for some reason I thought you were the one who posted those really beautiful long pole sparing vids years ago. Is that not right? (if not, do you remember who that was? Man, that was some good stuff)


Hey man - yeah I posted the vids, but wasn't in them.. that was Russ in Nagoya filming the Shunpukan guys doing their Owari Kan ryu sojutsu stuff.. as you say, very very good stuff - the 'engetsu' effect created by the kuda yari they use is scary
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Pandrews1982 on Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:50 am

Laodan

The basic deflections and cuts of the Yang Family sword are virtually the same as the basic movements in Xing Yi 5 element jian. In Xing Yi there are multiple movements lumped into each five element form which are broken down further in the Yang Taiji system into individual deflections or cuts/thrusts. For example in the Yang sword a deep thrust is Ci - sting/pierce and a short thrust is dian - point/dot (which is in fact often used as a leg attack), these would simply be considered variations of "beng" within Xing Yi Jian.

Laoshi Rodell seems to believe that the Yang family adapted their sword art when they were teaching in Beijing and this may have been due to cross training with the Xing Yi community that were there at the time. The basics are extremely similar in approach.

My Xing Yi is primarily based on positional advantage ("seeing the heng") and simultaneous attack and defense (slipping past and attacking) so where possible I will deflect and enter at the same time which you noticed. This is slightly different to the taji basis which would look to deflect from a stable base then enter. The difference is small and with good timing it's almost imperceptible.

The majority of our work is "from contact" or "from engaged" - i.e. within the striking range of the opponent. Further than this we call "stand-off" range or "disengaged" and whilst we have methods to work from out there it's not our preference. Xing Yi is generally a close combat art.

If I can slip around an attack and strike without need to deflect or defend then I will do so but it's almost always from a closer range than seen in Maarten's video. The no contact techniques from further distance I would not use so directly, instead trying to create a reaction and then changing the line of attack in response. This kind of attack is much more difficult to pull off, especially against experienced fencers who will not fall for some feints and don't back down in the face of a heavy cut. It is remarkable how much force you can deflect with good structure and turn from the waist and then the guy who has cut heavily will be in trouble.

I should also say that when I was originally taught Xing Yi sword we were shown applications and linking sequences and lots of various movements and then we'd maybe do things slow and focused . My Xing Yi teacher has experience in fencing and Chinese sword from a number of arts. His focus was not on teaching us sword particularly but on the art of Xing Yi as a whole. His approach was also use of power in a subtle way. He was good and very powerful but as we didn't focus on sword every week the skill level of our group in sword was well below that of our emptyhand practice and way below our teacher.

Our sparring, especially when my teacher was not around, often descended into the jumping in and out sniping for the wrists type tag with sticks I often see. I think this is a default for many people that are trying to just score a cheap hit without having the skill to actually stay in range, read the opponent and deflect or parry or move confidently enough to know that they will not take a re-hit. None of us had held a real sword let along cut with one so whilst we were told about blade edge alignment etc. it wasn't really a priority. We also mainly used Raven Studios Hickory jian back then which were a bit longer and lighter than Graham Cave jian and thinner so felt more sword like but less safe in sparring. After 2011 and my experience at the European tournament, I noticed that many people there were similar in approach but especially the Estonians that had trained with Scott Rodell more seemed less likely to back down and would breeze through people trying to flick at them. I spent time with Scott that weekend and at the next tournament discussing things related to sword. I then spent a lot of time making my own swordplay more disciplined both by myself, working with my students and peers and then eventually bringing in Scott himself to give instruction. I've since had Scott over in the UK maybe 4 times and he's heading back again this November for our next seminar and I've also visited him in Washington DC.

Overall I think Scott's approach is to teach basic skills which in many ways bridge across most Chinese styles. The fundamental techniques are based around the weapons with basic movements such as waist twisting and simple stepping being similar or identical in many Chinese styles, especially northern Chinese styles. I have practiced a little bit of Northern Shaolin jian years ago and the basics of Scott's system would for instance slot right into that system too.


Grip

Grip on jian we were taught is supposed to be solid so that it doesn't lose the sword. The grip we use is slightly modified from the Xing Yi grip I was originally taught. Originally I was taught little finger tightest at the apex of the lozenge shape of the hilt, then the fingers loosen towards the index finger with the thumb over the knuckle of the index finger. This allows for hinging at the top of the hand.

Scott teaches a different grip which I believe is actually from Wudang Sword (Li Jing Ling - which is a combination of sword styles) this grip has the middle two fingers tight but the little finger and index finger relaxed and the thumb clamps the middle finger knuckles. This allows hinging at the top and a little at the bottom of the hilt. Other than that hinge like movement which can be used to whip the sword out or flick it the grip doesn't change. Gloves do get in the way and we actually usually train without any protection at all (some of the guys use eye protection safety glasses just in case a stray sword tip ends up in the face).

Essentially there should be the ability to flick or hinge at the wrist with the jian. With Dao this is usually more locked in and hinging is more from the elbow but there can still be wrist movement.

We wouldn't loosen the grip at any point such as to roll the blade or deflect, I've seen and experienced the sword being knocked out of a hand many times when doing that. I had a peer that once said that you couldn't do a roll without loosening the grip, so I showed him I could. His wrists were not flexible enough. It takes something like 6 months of stretching (according to Chris Sommers - gymnastic bodies) to increase range in tendons/ligaments and you need to keep the joint strong too. My friend eventually was able to roll the blade without loosening his grip.
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