Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Pandrews1982 on Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:41 am

jianfa, probably declined on the battlefield, easier to hack with a dao but it certainly was still held in regard for civilian defense and the milita jian of the ming dynasty and early qing were robust and functional, I doubt they were specifically "used like dao". Just last night I was teaching jianfa and specifically trying to get my guys to deal with shorter range, in that range the tip is most dangerous for thrusting. Chinese armour, even rudimentary armour is pretty good at stopping cuts.

If you've never tried test cutting with a real sword I suggest you do, it will give you insight into your art, you will need to develop edge control and alignment, stability in the wrist etc. Things most Chinese martial artists are not even aware of because they've never cut anything, and therefore they simply believe that a sword of any kind is like some kind of lightsabre that can slice through anything. Try cutting a tatami mat wrapped with a t-shirt!

So scraping cuts, cuts with no power or clear contact are pretty much bullshit. A thrust without follow through is rubbish. Playing tag with a stick isn't swordfighting (I'm not saying this is what was presented in Maarten's video, it's not particularly, but there is a lot of this out there). The video that steve james presented - jifeng chinese sword is an example of playing tag with sticks.

very effective against those that I have "crossed blades" with, which includes XYLHQ Dao, Taijijian and Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu


Frankly the state of weapon play across the board is poor so crossing blades with poor swordsmen from other styles proves nothing.

Being honest, I'm not knocking your video to show some superior understanding of Chinese sword, I'm still working on a lot of stuff myself and am by no means perfect. I would like to see an improvement and better understanding of sword work all round in the CMA field. Better overall means more good people to train with, more people gaining interest and wanting to have a go, if anyone can wander up wave a stick about and jump around a bit and is a master then we're in trouble.

I thought I was pretty good when I went to the European Jianfa tournament in 2011 and placed 4th, looking back on that I would say I was an enthusiastic beginner myself, swinging away with other enthusiastic beginners. But I was able to see some good technique from some guys there and I saw that the approach of Laoshi Scott Rodell was based on developing good basic skill and an understanding of the limitations, functions and realistic properties of the sword. Which of course is why I sought our Laoshi Rodell to be my sword teacher.

I spar full contact with heavy wooden swords which replicate the weight and balance of historical swords. Most of our swords are from Graham Cave (Tigers Den Swords) and I have in recent years been testing wooden swords for Graham to feed back into his designs. I often spar with no protection and I've taken some very heavy blows in the past. In the 2011 European Jianfa tournament I knocked out one of my opponents with a blow to the head through his helmet. My Xing Yi teacher didn't believe much in using protective equipment. Taking a hickory sword to the thumb is extremely painful and you develop a respect for the weapon. Padded swords although may be heavy I think give too much sense of safety and don't move quite right. Of course the wooden swords we use are blunt and thick and I would prefer something more "sword like" but they are pretty good (I've handled a few antiques now and I own a couple of antique swords myself). I also have a functional jian for test cutting and a blunt metal jian for practice/sparring.

What looks like it lacks finesse (and remember that the Dao is a more crude instrument than the Jian is) makes up for it with pure force and trickery - and a good measure of accuracy


I have a wooden dandao, it's about 1.5m blade length and certainly is a pure force weapon but it still has finesse and hitting the floor after a powerful stroke is a sure sign of lack of control. If you miss your target the cut is stopped and reeled in, the tip resets on target as soon as possible or you cut again immediately (again with control). I've cut with a real miao dao and again it's easy to overcut so it's imperative you train this and don't make excuses like "its a pure force weapon" you can train finesse into big weapons and power weapons. Same principles apply - if you overcut then you are open for attack.

Here is a video from I think a few years ago now and it's me in red with chest guard sparring lightly with one of my students. We're just playing around really it's not competitive sometimes in this video I hold back and I'm also trying things out and for part of the video we also spar left handed. This is of course jianfa and not daofa so there are some differences but the principles remain the same. Even now looking back at this I see lots of mistakes in myself. But you might see that distancing here is more gauged than in your video. Cuts and thrusts are for the most part reserved and that's why at times it is difficult for either of us to enter - because a threat is maintained.



Here is a video of some competitive sparring from students of Laoshi Rodell. Note that the guy in gold overreaches a bit and is punished by the bigger guy in red. Both are still beginning attacks from a little too far out IMO but its not a bad example.



Some other examples of fairly good swordsmanship from other traditions:

Here is a pretty good sabre sparring video, notice no leaping around or wild cuts.



Sword and buckler...no leaping around, no wild cuts, point staying on target.

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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:57 am

Finny wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Are you serious or trolling? For starters our training swords weigh a lot more than those floppy noodles (and are a third heavier than the heaviest Kendo Shinai) and are rigid (almost as rigid as a synthetic blade), so thrusts are possible and can be painful and leave massive bruises. Slashes and cleaving cuts can sting like a mother fucker, even through clothes, and can also leave bruises.


Why would I be trolling? I said in response to Graham's post that it "looks like less formal kendo" that "it's called chambara (thanks Ian - and happy birthday BTW!)". Is chambara not 'less formal kendo'?

And judging by the following five pages of discussion - the notion that your 'swordsmanship' looks like spochan is clearly a common one.. so again - why would you suggest I'm trolling?

MaartenSFS wrote:Your ignorance is disturbing and, frankly, disappointing. Do I need to invest a lot of money and do it with blunt metal blades and heavy armour for it to not be a game??? The techniques are identical. Do you need to hear the clangs of steel clashing? Or see arms lopped off?


Well thank you for the insult, but I'll stick to the topic at hand - clearly from my perspective your ignorance is telling.. and I've been practicing (legitimate) swordsmanship for many years more than you have...

In what way would 'doing it with blunt metal blades and heavy armour' make it 'not a game'?

The techniques are identical? You fight an armoured opponent with techniques identical to those you use against an unarmoured opponent?

What would the clang of steel clashing mean to me? Arms lopped off would certainly make it no game though.

MaartenSFS wrote:We go full contact with no rules except to avoid hitting the back of the head and balls. The weapons are heavy enough to seriously injure someone. What more do you want? I invite you to test my swordsmanship skills any time, anywhere. If you want to compare it to a children's game at least have the balls to follow up your words with action.


You 'go full contact with no rules' ... hitting each other with padded sticks.

Do you think your 'technique would be identical' if you were fighting with real swords?

And in response to your juvenile 'invitation'... I don't fight people with swords, what with it being illegal and all. And I don't play games of tag with sticks, fun though that may be.

Spochan is not a less formal Kendo. It is clearly a game. I can guarantee you that it can be quite unpleasant to get hit or stabbed with our swords. I took offence to you brushing off my hard work and calling it a game. I didn't insult you. Now you insult me again by inferring that only what you do is "legitimate". Although I have only been practising swordsmanship for a little less than a year, I have devoted 3.5-4 hours to it and fenced EVERY DAY. I learned rapidly because my Master doesn't stretch things out unnecessarily or teach things like forms to waste my time. My one year is worth more than two years of what most people would consider dedicated studying. Furthermore, everything is built upon the three years of unarmed martial arts that I learned from him, not to mention more than ten years of other training.

Perhaps my wording wasn't great. Here I referred to protective equipment as armour. We are doing unarmoured armed fighting, but with protective equipment. I hope that clears things up.

My technique would be identical if they were real swords. My strategy would not. I would fight more conservatively. In the video I mention that. Also, I have already said that I was using flashier techniques to make it more entertaining - and succeeding in most cases. I'm okay showing that I failed sometimes. I was experimenting with high-level techniques. I didn't think that people would be judging me so unfairly or I would have bashed my training partner over and over and made him look bad.

It's not a juvenile invitation. I didn't mean real swords, of course. Lots of people think that they know swordsmanship until they are handed one of these and have to use it against a resisting opponent. We use different rulesets to make it more realistic sometimes like fight up to three points. Weapon hand and head/throat are worth two points. People try much harder to not get hit. Also, if one person hits the head or weapon hand and the other hits somewhere else the former could gain one point, so there is an incentive to hit vital targets. Sometimes we say that you're only allowed three double hits or both lose if there's too much of that going on.

I was trying to show a broad range of what we do and many on here just shat all over it. I hope that you can understand why I would get upset. I can assure you that no one on here has sacrificed so much and worked so hard to learn this stuff. It is not the same as Jianfa. It's not about who has more finesse, but about hacking them to bits and surviving. It has passed down like this for generations and I am very honoured to have been given the chance to learn it. I overreacted because the "weapons" in Spochan are floppy noodles and in no way, shape or form can represent a weapon other than a wet towel. I apologise for my overreaction. Still, if you really do think that it's total shite, my invitation stands.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:33 am

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Paul (that is your name, right?). I really appreciate it. As this is all done in writing, it can be difficult to gauge people's tone. Let me try to reply to your points one by one.

1) Yes! I absolutely will do test cutting at some point in the future. I totally agree with you that it will change my perspective. I need to return to the West and have a stable life to afford it, though, so that will take me a while. I know that swords are not light sabres and do a lot of sword-specific training to make sure that my blows are powerful (they are). Still, one thing that I mentioned before, but probably not on this thread, is that I think that in this day and age it is important for this stuff to work with more every day objects as well and that is where my training shines. I have also been taught a decent amount of staff fighting, but we have no safe way to train this full contact. In another clip that I didn't add to this video I thrusted my opponent so hard that he was knocked back and the weapon flew out of my hand (since it wasn't able to penetrate his body).

2) I agree with you that the state of swordsmanship is not good at all, so my claim may not mean much.. But consider this; in ancient times soldier's didn't have a lot of time to learn swordsmanship. They learned the main techniques and were sent off to battle. Most of their strength probably came from the struggles of daily life. Officers learned more, but were also less likely to use it. I have already logged hundreds of hours of fencing, more than anyone could have done in the past, against all sorts of people, including a special forces Sanda guy that learned XYLH Dao. Oftentimes the most dangerous opponent is an unskilled, but aggressive or strong one. I'm not saying that I'm the best swordsman alive, just that my claim isn't totally without merit. Think of me as an officer that has been trained and fought in some light skirmishes and survived to continue training and go to war and one day perhaps even instruct the imperial army if I survive long enough.. :P My Master has taught me most of what he knows, but he can't give me experience. I will continue to fence and send him videos for feedback.

For what it's worth, my Master (60 years old) competed in an all-China swordsmanship competition at Wudangshan last year and received 2nd place, after his Gongfu brother, who is more than ten years younger and was Sanda champion of Guangxi (and perhaps nationally as well, I forgot).

3) I wasn't impressed by the Jianfa video either, but I haven't found many videos out there or even people talking about it, including Scott Rodell's site (It should be Rodell Laoshi in Chinese), which is like a ghost town.

4) Thank you for telling me more about your training and experience. I respect what you've done. I definitely hope to gain that amount of experience over the years. I'm not sure about the wooden swords approach, though. I feel that you have to hold back more. I think a combination of both would be best. I think that using Shinai is not a good option, as they aren't swords either and are even lighter. People that train Olympic fencing or Kendo would probably hurt their wrists easily with our padded swords. I mean this is what I was given to work with. If something better comes along I'll be all for it, but these are affordable and I'll have more people to train with, which counts for something.

5) You're right about me hitting the ground. I don't do that all the time. That's why I mentioned it in the video. I really over-cut there. That one instance (nor several other sloppy cuts) doesn't represent what I do as a whole. I left it in there because I wanted to show the fencing from beginning to end, warts and all (except for a long stretch with my Master where nothing was going on). I think that there are some good examples of using good control in the video as well, but also some bad ones. I'm okay with that, as I will continue to work on improving that. :)

6) Unfortunately I can't open the videos right now. My VPN tends to work better in the mornings.. I'll comment on those once I've seen them. I will only say one thing and that is that there isn't always an emphasis on keeping the point on target in our fencing. Oftentimes we are trying to deceive our opponent and use different techniques from different guards from different angles. I need to see your video to see what you are doing. Our approaches may be different, though.

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply. I feel that it's necessary to say more when typing, lest misunderstandings arise. I see where you are coming from now.

Okay, the videos are working now. I just watched the competition video. In my opinion the guy in gold has no intent. His attacks lack power and red would kill him in real life. Some of the techniques are similar to what we use. I don't see much footwork, though. My Master studied primarily Baguazhang along with his swordsmanship (including Jianfa), so that could explain it. I watched it again. I thought that red was stumbling backwards near the beginning, but it could be on purpose.. Overall not bad, but red could be more aggressive. Or is that not allowed with wooden swords? The whole fight seemed like it was in slow motion. There weren't many explosive movements.

I too like to thrust the hands, especially if they raise their guard.

I'm watching your video now. Thanks for sending that, by the way. I see that you are standing much closer. You aren't using as many techniques to target the hand as we are, which could explain that. In my video I use two techniques on my opponent at the end that are very practical in this situation; Beng and Jihuazhan. That is why we stand so far apart, so avoid getting hit in the hands. Another disadvantage at this range is that if you lose focus for a second your opponent can easily just reach out and poke you in the eye. There was some good non-weapon hand control. I'm not as good at that yet. I think that our fencing methods are quite different. You would be an interesting person to fence against. ;D

I just had a chance to watch the last two videos. I had seen that sabre video before. I like it a lot. But they have really good hand guards that change things a lot. They can just hang their hands out there far from the body. With our swords we can't do that, hence the different footwork.

The sword and buckler stuff is very interesting too, but they aren't really trying to hit each other because it isn't safe to do so. Also, their hands are extremely well-protected, so they can stay much closer.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Finny on Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:02 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Spochan is not a less formal Kendo. It is clearly a game. I can guarantee you that it can be quite unpleasant to get hit or stabbed with our swords. I took offence to you brushing off my hard work and calling it a game.


Can you explain why you think that spochan is a game, and what you do is not because you use sticks that are 'unpleasant' to be hit with? I'm curious as to why that is a distinguishing factor for you.

MaartenSFS wrote:I didn't insult you. Now you insult me again by inferring that only what you do is "legitimate". Although I have only been practising swordsmanship for a little less than a year, I have devoted 3.5-4 hours to it and fenced EVERY DAY. I learned rapidly because my Master doesn't stretch things out unnecessarily or teach things like forms to waste my time. My one year is worth more than two years of what most people would consider dedicated studying. Furthermore, everything is built upon the three years of unarmed martial arts that I learned from him, not to mention more than ten years of other training.


I didn't mean to infer anything of the sort.

MaartenSFS wrote:I have been learning from a master that learned it from his master/s and so on for four years (less for swordsmanship).


Can you tell us more about where this swordsmanship comes from? Is there a cohesive tradition that your master learned? Or is this his creation?

MaartenSFS wrote:Perhaps my wording wasn't great. Here I referred to protective equipment as armour. We are doing unarmoured armed fighting, but with protective equipment. I hope that clears things up.

My technique would be identical if they were real swords. My strategy would not. I would fight more conservatively. In the video I mention that. Also, I have already said that I was using flashier techniques to make it more entertaining - and succeeding in most cases. I'm okay showing that I failed sometimes. I was experimenting with high-level techniques. I didn't think that people would be judging me so unfairly or I would have bashed my training partner over and over and made him look bad.


Yes I did understand what you're doing. I have no problem with it - as i said I think it's a great game, and would have a good deal of crossover into real unarmoured swordsmanship.

MaartenSFS wrote:It's not a juvenile invitation. I didn't mean real swords, of course. Lots of people think that they know swordsmanship until they are handed one of these and have to use it against a resisting opponent. We use different rulesets to make it more realistic sometimes like fight up to three points. Weapon hand and head/throat are worth two points. People try much harder to not get hit. Also, if one person hits the head or weapon hand and the other hits somewhere else the former could gain one point, so there is an incentive to hit vital targets. Sometimes we say that you're only allowed three double hits or both lose if there's too much of that going on.

I was trying to show a broad range of what we do and many on here just shat all over it. I hope that you can understand why I would get upset. I can assure you that no one on here has sacrificed so much and worked so hard to learn this stuff. It is not the same as Jianfa. It's not about who has more finesse, but about hacking them to bits and surviving. It has passed down like this for generations and I am very honoured to have been given the chance to learn it. I overreacted because the "weapons" in Spochan are floppy noodles and in no way, shape or form can represent a weapon other than a wet towel. I apologise for my overreaction. Still, if you really do think that it's total shite, my invitation stands.


I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of spochan weapons - for the training purposes that you are applying them for, 'floppy noodles' can be relatively effective. See the fukuroshinai of Shinkage ryu, which is lighter than a kendo shinai, and far more flexible:

Image

And I don't agree that anyone here 'shat all over it'. They may not have fawned and been as positive in their assessment of your work as you are, but I didn't see anything malicious - the closest is probably what I wrote, and I wasn't trying to be malicious, I was trying to illustrate the gulf between your training and real sword fighting. But that seemed to have been missed. I appreciate the invitation, and as I said I have no doubt it's fun. It's just not my thing.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:59 pm

Spochan is a game because the "weapon" is so incredibly light and flexible that it doesn't resemble a sword, or even a stick, in any way, shape or form. Also, you can't thrust or use it to block or bind, all of which you can do (and see me do in the video) with ours. It being rigid and heavy enough to inflict pain helps in to be more realistic as well.

My Master learned Jianfa, Dandao and Baguadao (and unarmed fighting) from his first master (who supposedly never found an equal in combat south of the river - the Changjiang - and has left behind a number of very skilled disciples). He then learned Miaodao from several masters throughout China and staff fighting from a village clan that are descended from caravan bodyguards. He then combined what he thought were the most effective techniques from all of those that could be used with a single edged hand-and-a-half length and weight sword. He says that the Tangdao is perfect for his style.

Is boxing a game because they use padded gloves? Take off those gloves and it becomes real dangerous.. I train with wooden and weighted bamboo swords that weight the same as real swords (or more). Hand me a real sword and I can apply everything you see here. The only thing I really lack is test-cutting, though I have handled real blades to make sure that I can use them in the same way that I use the training swords (the answer is yes). Everything else will improve with experience.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Finny on Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:30 pm

Boxing gloves protect the hands of the boxer - they effectively increase the danger involved in boxing, as opposed to what you are doing, which is to eliminate the danger associated with the activity entirely.

I'm sorry I don't share your assessment of the distinction between the two activities. I understand the limitations you describe around the spochan 'weapons'.. I just disagree that your approach overcomes these limitations.

So if I understand right it's an amalgam of disparate teachings - as a 'system' it's your teacher's creation?
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:47 pm

Boxing gloves were invented to stop people from being killed in the ring.. Protecting the hands was an afterthought. So being able to thrust and block and bind and use a weapon of a more realistic weight that actually conditions the wrist is NOT overcoming limitations???

They are not disparate teachings. There is a lot of overlap because that is what was always intended. Even Baguazhang itself was created with armed fighting in mind.

Anyways, I get it. You aren't impressed. Since I haven't seen anything from you I'll just say that we agree to disagree and go our separate ways.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Finny on Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:32 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Boxing gloves were invented to stop people from being killed in the ring.. Protecting the hands was an afterthought. So being able to thrust and block and bind and use a weapon of a more realistic weight that actually conditions the wrist is NOT overcoming limitations???


No they weren't. Yes, your efforts (imo) overcome some of the limitations you describe, but leave many outstanding.

MaartenSFS wrote:They are not disparate teachings. There is a lot of overlap because that is what was always intended. Even Baguazhang itself was created with armed fighting in mind.


So what is the name of the tradition? Where is it from, who used it etc?

MaartenSFS wrote:Anyways, I get it. You aren't impressed. Since I haven't seen anything from you I'll just say that we agree to disagree and go our separate ways.


Clearly you don't get it. You have reacted the same way in nearly every thread I've seen you start - when you don't get the response you are looking for you throw your toys out of the pram and post as you have above, completely ignoring the content of the discussion, and petulantly insisting that you know better and shouldn't have bothered subjecting yourself to this shit. Kinda removes the ability to effectively communicate. As you say, we clearly disagree on something.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:46 am

Hey Finny, I think I have misremembered, but for some reason I thought you were the one who posted those really beautiful long pole sparing vids years ago. Is that not right? (if not, do you remember who that was? Man, that was some good stuff)

Also, I guess spochan could be viewed as a game, but so could judo randori. Some would agree, many would take umbrage. I'm sure they are both useful, but how useful depends on how one plays the game. Anyway, spochan looks fun, but I recently made fun of a famous guy here in Japan when he told me he did it (he also does koryu, so he took it in stride as he knew I was at least sort of right).

For the record, Martin's videos continue to be completely unimpressive. I mentioned that before but was promised that new stuff would be coming.

The underlying problem with the weapons work is the same as the unarmed work: an obvious dearth of basics. Total disconnection, even under no pressure.

Also, FWIW, me and my buddies used to beat on each other with similar toy weapons back in high school. PVC filled with sand and wrapped with light plumbing insulation and electrical tape. Bruises were guaranteed, a few people still have scars more than two decades later from having them broken over the face and getting cut. It was still a game.

This weapons sparing is sloppy, just like the empty hand stuff I have seen.

That being said, I really enjoyed some of the other clips shared. The wood sword stuff is on the right track.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:49 am

I believe that the importance of the outstanding limitations do not exceed that of people being able to fight against each other full-contact, at full speed. When I have money in future I may try to do it both ways.

My Master combined the teachings of his primary Master with several others (conforming to those teachings), all of whom could use what they knew, and sparred and fenced for over thirty years to form his own system. If that means nothing to you then I don't know what else to say.

Perhaps I've reacted the same way because people like you keep trolling my threads. If you wanted to have a discussion with me you wouldn't have started by immediately insulting my work. There was no content in your discussion. You have offered absolutely nothing. Post a video of YOUR sword fighting or go bother someone else. Come to think of it, I've never seen anything from you period.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby GrahamB on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:10 am

Just as an aside, is there any way we can all stop using the phrase "my master..."

I read it in a Hayden Christiansen voice, from the prequal Star Wars films. EVERY TIME. And nobody wants that in their head.....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg8NEQ6aizI

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Thank you. My Master.
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:18 am

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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:20 am

MaartenSFS wrote:I believe that the importance of the outstanding limitations do not exceed that of people being able to fight against each other full-contact, at full speed. When I have money in future I may try to do it both ways.

My Master combined the teachings of his primary Master with several others (conforming to those teachings), all of whom could use what they knew, and sparred and fenced for over thirty years to form his own system. If that means nothing to you then I don't know what else to say.

Perhaps I've reacted the same way because people like you keep trolling my threads. If you wanted to have a discussion with me you wouldn't have started by immediately insulting my work. There was no content in your discussion. You have offered absolutely nothing. Post a video of YOUR sword fighting or go bother someone else. Come to think of it, I've never seen anything from you period.

Kendo and Olympic fencing has been around for some time here in China but not very widespread well Olympic fencing might be nowadays. But otherwise than sparring/fencing with those "styles" I get the feeling that fencing/sparring the Chinese way have been very limited or even almost nonexistent here, so it would seem your teacher has had quite limited fencing-sparring material(people)to practice with during those thirty years of sharpening his fencing? Or did he also practice in Kendo/Olympic fencing during this time?
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:22 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Hey Finny, I think I have misremembered, but for some reason I thought you were the one who posted those really beautiful long pole sparing vids years ago. Is that not right? (if not, do you remember who that was? Man, that was some good stuff)

Also, I guess spochan could be viewed as a game, but so could judo randori. Some would agree, many would take umbrage. I'm sure they are both useful, but how useful depends on how one plays the game. Anyway, spochan looks fun, but I recently made fun of a famous guy here in Japan when he told me he did it (he also does koryu, so he took it in stride as he knew I was at least sort of right).

For the record, Martin's videos continue to be completely unimpressive. I mentioned that before but was promised that new stuff would be coming.

The underlying problem with the weapons work is the same as the unarmed work: an obvious dearth of basics. Total disconnection, even under no pressure.

Also, FWIW, me and my buddies used to beat on each other with similar toy weapons back in high school. PVC filled with sand and wrapped with light plumbing insulation and electrical tape. Bruises were guaranteed, a few people still have scars more than two decades later from having them broken over the face and getting cut. It was still a game.

This weapons sparing is sloppy, just like the empty hand stuff I have seen.

That being said, I really enjoyed some of the other clips shared. The wood sword stuff is on the right track.

Thank you for misspelling my name that is written right above. I don' t mind it if you call what I do a sport, as NO ONE is fighting to the death with a sword. A total disconnect? No pressure? Where was the pressure in those videos posted? What is the difference? It was all friendly fencing. Apparently I have learned a different way of fighting than most of you on here. What gives you the right to come on here and tell me that I lack even basics? Do you have any idea how rude that is? If you disagree with my approach, fine, but don't be a dick about it. I feel like a lot of you have an axe to grind.

Frankly, I haven't been impressed with most of the videos that have been posted in this thread either. I can find faults in each (and in my own of course). In the Jilin Feng Jianfa video they were just taking turns hitting each other with what appeared to be extremely light sticks, but the footwork was better than some others. The rapier video looks like they were rubbing each other's swords and there was no intent on trying to stab the opponent. I liked the intensity of the longsword video, but their hands were woefully exposed (assuming that they weren't wearing armour) and they kept rushing in and binding because that's what the opponent was doing and if they weren't and disengaging and going for thrusts or leg shots (or hand shots if they were fighting unarmoured) they would be in trouble. They looked evenly matched and really into it, though.

In Paul Andrew's video they were standing too close to each other and their hands were exposed as well - sometimes someone could just reach over and poke them in the eye, but his close-up work was really smooth and flexible (try that on someone that is trying to cut you with full power and speed, though). At least he admitted that he would do things differently now and I'm sure that he's improved since then. In the Jianfa tournament video it was almost in slow motion and gold didn't even seem like he was there, but there were some decent exchanges and a nice thrust to the hand. In the latter two videos there was almost no entering and exiting footwork. For the sword and buckler video I have no comment, as they can't fence without at least masks and that was really just drilling. In almost none of the videos was there any explosive movement or footwork because that requires athleticism that I doubt many possess. Nor did anyone attack the legs once. They can be a very good target with the proper footwork, timing and strategy.

In my video I over-cut several times and miscalculated what my opponent was doing several times. I wasn't very conservative because I was trying to show as many things as I could in a short period of time and not trying to defend as well as normal. Also, I'm running out of time here in China and trying to learn as much as I can and use it before I move away from China after eleven years here, so there is constant pressure - MORE THAN YOU'VE EVER HAD IN YOUR LIFE - to finish everything. Shooting these videos takes precious time out of my training.

Regardless, there is some stuff in there that I'm really proud of, such as flawless timing and footwork in several instances and really good power and explosiveness all around that I do not see in most of those videos. You can say that I was exposing myself too often, but my opponents didn't have the chance to exploit that due to evasive footwork, threatening them in such a way or whatever reason you can choose to find. My training partners are not worse fighters than many of those I've seen in these videos - if they aren't better. The only one that impressed me was that sabre fencing video. Those guys are good, but even they hit each other. And that's okay! It's training. We are experimenting to improve ourselves and in the end we aren't going to the morgue for it. Some of you are being filthy trolls and unless you show some really impressive videos of YOU fencing I could care less about anything else you have to say.

To those of you that did post videos, despite what flaws I believe that I may have found (since I personally have never fenced with you), I respect what you do and would never say that you lacked even fencing basics or that you are playing a game. That would be extremely rude. I've never said anything like that about anyone.
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MaartenSFS
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Re: Chinese Swordsmanship Fencing Video!

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:30 am

Trick wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:I believe that the importance of the outstanding limitations do not exceed that of people being able to fight against each other full-contact, at full speed. When I have money in future I may try to do it both ways.

My Master combined the teachings of his primary Master with several others (conforming to those teachings), all of whom could use what they knew, and sparred and fenced for over thirty years to form his own system. If that means nothing to you then I don't know what else to say.

Perhaps I've reacted the same way because people like you keep trolling my threads. If you wanted to have a discussion with me you wouldn't have started by immediately insulting my work. There was no content in your discussion. You have offered absolutely nothing. Post a video of YOUR sword fighting or go bother someone else. Come to think of it, I've never seen anything from you period.

Kendo and Olympic fencing has been around for some time here in China but not very widespread well Olympic fencing might be nowadays. But otherwise than sparring/fencing with those "styles" I get the feeling that fencing/sparring the Chinese way have been very limited or even almost nonexistent here, so it would seem your teacher has had quite limited fencing-sparring material(people)to practice with during those thirty years of sharpening his fencing? Or did he also practice in Kendo/Olympic fencing during this time?


Actually, there were a lot of tournaments up until the Communist takeover and people were doing their own thing for a while, but could be found if you looked hard enough. One such tradition of Jianfa is alive and well in Xi'an and my Master wants to visit one of these days. He has lived in all areas of China except Tibet and Taiwan and searched high and low. He also ran into Olympic fencers and one Japanese that trained in Kenjutsu. He is incredibly skilled with a sword or stick or spear or unarmed, for that matter. He's getting old, though, so his conditioning is deteriorating and he can't fence or spar for as long as several years ago. One of his Gongfu brothers also learned swordsmanship from another master, still in this small city, and is even better, but a complete arsehole that uses his students as punching bags. Still, young people have stopped learning and the arts are dying out - ALL OF THEM. I am doing my best to preserve at least one system.
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