Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

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Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Ron Panunto on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:27 am

For those who practice Microcosmic Orbit, how do you know if you have opened the two meridians and then completed the orbit? I have been practicing since the early 1970's and I really don't know how to gauge success. For those who have completed the orbit, or think they have, was the realization sudden or gradual over time. What was the nature of your realization? What can you do now with your taijiquan that was missing before you completed the orbit? For those that don't practice this method, why don't you think that it's important for taijiquan mastery?

I even went to a Mantak Chia seminar about 35 years ago with the promise that he would inject his qi into my 3rd eye and that would complete the orbit. I felt absolutely no difference after the seminar, so that indicated one of three things to me: 1) that I had already completed my orbit, so there was no additional effect; 2) that Chia's qi injection didn't work on me; or 3) that Chia was a fraud and I got took.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby GrahamB on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:34 am

Ron,

I've found that people involved more in the chi kung world have one understanding about the microcosm orbit and people involved in the 'functional movement' or martial arts world have another. For what it's worth.

Here's CZL



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNUtD_iWZLU
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Franklin on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:05 pm

if you are not trolling...
here is my answer


check this book out..
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Book-Herc ... 0972190716

at least in my experience it describes very well the physical things you go through as your body "opens up"

just a caution-- the writing is a bit hard to get through sometimes-
the author likes to repeat himself over and over...


and personally i stay away from the mantak chia stuff...
or the stuff where you just sit there and play with your imagination...

---

as to microcosmic circulation related to taiji specifically

almost every teacher i had did the form in a way that facilitates running the circuit naturally while you practice
(yang and chen style)
even if they did not state so specifically..
its in the way the breath harmonizes with the movement

some teachers just talk about this harmonization for power development and whole body ordination

but my first teacher had a whole way to work the orbit while you practice
and then the second and final stage was to draw heaven and earth energy into the body and run the orbit as you practice..
he was also pretty skilled at energy healing and introduced me to some pretty cool stuff...
this was all while I was a teenager...

as for what it did for my taiji..
the best thing would be that it gave me a lot of different perspectives on what the practice of taiji is for..
it is at the same time for all the different aspects --
but each aspect of practice is just a piece of the whole..

as for the orbit being important for taiji mastery...
i don't know...

i think its more that it is something that might arise out of practice..
if you have been shown that it is there...



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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby voidisyinyang on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:31 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:For those who practice Microcosmic Orbit, how do you know if you have opened the two meridians and then completed the orbit? I have been practicing since the early 1970's and I really don't know how to gauge success. For those who have completed the orbit, or think they have, was the realization sudden or gradual over time. What was the nature of your realization? What can you do now with your taijiquan that was missing before you completed the orbit? For those that don't practice this method, why don't you think that it's important for taijiquan mastery?

I even went to a Mantak Chia seminar about 35 years ago with the promise that he would inject his qi into my 3rd eye and that would complete the orbit. I felt absolutely no difference after the seminar, so that indicated one of three things to me: 1) that I had already completed my orbit, so there was no additional effect; 2) that Chia's qi injection didn't work on me; or 3) that Chia was a fraud and I got took.


There was a student of Mantak Chia who said his third eye was not open - so I don't know. But if you want the real martial arts lineage that trains the microcosmic orbit meditation then this is it http://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/blog.html

Daoist Self-cultivation has eighteen steps to achieve a robust health and long life that can be helpful to elderly people that are premised upon martial arts practice. This is because Zhao Bichen – the Founder of the Qianfeng Prenatal School – was not only an advanced Daoist, but also a very accomplished martial artist. For instance, the elderly can benefit from the practice of Taiji (太极) as this martial system transports vital force (qi) and blood flow throughout the entire body.


So their training manual is translated into english as "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality." Just google it as free pdf and the archive.org has it word searchable which helps to understand it. It is very tricky to understand the book as many different terms are used in different ways. I have blogged on it at http://elixirfield.blogspot.com

But the key is basically that meditation enables the yin qi, normally lost out of the eyes while open, to then feed back in to the yang qi, that is created from celibacy and the turning of food into qi - with this meditation. So then only once the generative force or jing is restored to a 16 years old level does the "yuan qi" open up - so that the macrocosmic orbit is achieved. So I did achieve this at 29 years old but since I had not studied the alchemy book - I really had no idea what the proper training was nor how to maintain the energy etc. It is true - as Master Chen says - the Taoist Yoga book states - when the third eye opens up - this is called the Tai Chi, from the lower tan t'ien filled with energy and a "taste' of the yuan qi of the middle tan t'ien activated - and it will cause confusion. haha. You access your prenatal shen or "original shen" from before you were born. So you can see ghosts, do strong healing, and smell cancer, as the "vital force" is activated. But if you use the energy you will lose it and it is only maintained by celibacy which requires specific tricks and knowledge. At that stage also fasting helps to open up the energy channels.

The teacher I took that meditation from is Chunyi Lin who trained at Shaolin and Mt. Qingcheng. So his meditation of small universe is similar to the "accelerated small universe" of Zhong gong which is also taught by .... http://qidragon.com/qigong-2/qigong/qig ... r-program/ This Liping Zhu.

Part II Accelerated Microcosmic Orbit Qigong Method in a weekend Qigong workshop format or a 8-weekly 2 hour workshop format or a 4-weekly 4 hour workshop. You will also be certified to conduct the Qigong Intensive Day for Level 1 Part II Microcosmic Orbit Qigong.


So yes Mantak Chia does not really teach celibacy - and also full lotus meditation as Wang Liping teaches - is key to deep energy build up since it stretches out the lower back to open up the nerve channels in the lower back - to make sure the yang qi keeps building up. So the qigong masters are more focused on spirit healing and long distance healing using the "yuan qi" - whereas if you just keep building up the body's energy then you have to keep cycling the yang qi into yin qi and focusing your spirit back into the body through celibacy - and then this is the golden light to create even deeper levels of ability, like the "yang shen."

So that "accelerated" microcosmic orbit is again part of Zhong Gong - which used to be one of the biggest qigong training programs - and trained at Mt. Qingcheng, part of the Dragon Gate lineage of http://qigongmaster.com Zhang, Yuanming who also does martial arts.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:54 pm

IMHO, people take this stuff too seriously. Teachers complicate what it actually is (something not very special or spectacular IMO), and they make it too hard and theoretically for most students to understand.

Ron Panunto wrote:For those who practice Microcosmic Orbit, how do you know if you have opened the two meridians and then completed the orbit? I have been practicing since the early 1970's and I really don't know how to gauge success. For those who have completed the orbit, or think they have, was the realization sudden or gradual over time. What was the nature of your realization?


I studied this kind of stuff and practiced regularly from when I was about 13 yrs to 17 yrs old, sitting and standing meditation with circulation practice focusing on micro orbit. I have no idea exactly when I achieved this or that, but it was a gradual progression of internal awareness that made me aware of the circulation. You should be able feel the qi circulate and be able to enhance or cool it down with yi and breath. But it takes a certain amount of time to get the hang of it, I would suspect more for some and less for others.

What can you do now with your taijiquan that was missing before you completed the orbit?


Nothing. It's not an important practice. If it was extremely important , every Tai Chi practitioner would already practice it. I would rather recommend something like zen deep meditation. Micro and macro circulation comes naturally from regular tai chi practice.

For those that don't practice this method, why don't you think that it's important for taijiquan mastery?


It was a long time since I cared about it. Again, it's not necessary because both micro and macro circulation comes naturally from regular tai chi practice. . Micro circulation is IMO meaningless from a Tai Chi perspective, there's no point in it and it won't help you very much with anything, not even with the macro circulation.The only thing Macro circulation means is that you have circulation through the whole of the body, through the limbs, arms and legs. But Macro development in tai chi comes from correct movement and understanding stillness in motion. Sitting meditation especially doesn't help you understand tai chi movement.

I even went to a Mantak Chia seminar about 35 years ago with the promise that he would inject his qi into my 3rd eye and that would complete the orbit. I felt absolutely no difference after the seminar, so that indicated one of three things to me: 1) that I had already completed my orbit, so there was no additional effect; 2) that Chia's qi injection didn't work on me; or 3) that Chia was a fraud and I got took.


Probably a combination of them all, mostly 1 and 3. ;)
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby I-mon on Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:17 pm

Personally, I have found the most beneficial practice to be a slow and steady, systematic working through the movements of flexion and extension at each vertebral segment of the spine, and the corresponding muscular segment on the front of the body, all the way from the pelvic floor through the abdomen ribcage and neck. It takes a long time (I've been working at it for a solid decade) but it is endlessly rewarding, in that I keep discovering new segments which I hadn't been able to feel or move before, and it gives very interesting benefits in terms of strength and movement skill, breathing, internal awareness, relaxation, and meditation.

I recently met a guy who can shift the skin (superficial fascia) of his whole body up and down without moving the bones, connecting and moving the microcosmic orbit as a unit down the front and up the back and reversing it, and linking that to the arms and legs in the macrocosmic orbit, very clearly and palpably in a way that anyone could feel with their hands on any part of his body. Freaky and weird. So he had us training to move the fascia on opposite sides of each segment up and down using our hands and finding the parts where it didn't want to move, and then trying to use the macrocosmic orbit to raise and lower the arms, move up and down or forwards and backwards with the legs, etc. Very interesting stuff, still very new to me so I haven't made as much progress as I have with the method I described first, but again I like it because it is very physical and can be felt by someone else so it's easier to measure progress.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby charles on Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:11 pm

This isn't stuff that I'm generally willing to discuss publicly, but yours is a good question.
Last edited by charles on Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby willie on Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:39 am

If you listen to what CZL said, I would agree. Do not go seeking these types of things. I think that it's exactly like he said, it would create an artificial link that is dangerous and not natural.
So be careful what you wish for and just leave it alone. Just like the third eye, There is a reason why it is closed in the first place.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Trick on Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:50 am

Have no idea what microcismis orbit is. it's not something that is a consciously part of my Taiji training. It sound as something that would just muddle ones mind best let go of it
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby wiesiek on Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:05 am

I suppose impressions/effects are highly individualized, not to mention differences between MA, qigong, yoga, or new age geeks .
I train directing the qi thru meridians / it including DU and Ren meridians, aka >orbit</, 20 years +.
Our all meridians are open all the time, `cause we are livin` :)
Block/s/, pain on the track doesn`t mean -break/pause, just showing area of the affected stream.

Success?
hmmm,
I dont`t getting cold/flu any more during changing of the seasons.
and
my shoesoles wearing out evenly.

I-mon -very good post.
joyful usefullnes of the effords
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:13 am

Trick wrote:It sound as something that would just muddle ones mind best let go of it


8-) It is.



....

You can read more about it in the links below. But there are a few misconceptions that are constantly repeated nowadays. The circulation don't really happens through or inside any meridian. The old Neidan philosophy has been confused with modern theory, mostly from TCM and modern Qigong. So it's better to not take the descriptions and theory too seriously. The "sitting down and circulate qi-meditation" is in fact not old, but something quite new. Old Neidan practice was concerned about qi but circulating qi was never the main focus or the goal.

https://www.energygatesqigong.us/meridi ... ation.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcosmic_orbit
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:16 am

I-mon wrote:I recently met a guy who can shift the skin (superficial fascia) of his whole body up and down without moving the bones, connecting and moving the microcosmic orbit as a unit down the front and up the back and reversing it,


This skill has nothing to do with Microcosmic Orbit/small heavenly circulation.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Trick on Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:43 am

So most of you that are into this manage to go around the celibacy thing
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:57 am

Trick wrote:So most of you that are into this manage to go around the celibacy thing


There is absolutely no celibacy required for qi development. There is nothing in either older Daoist sources or in TCM that suggest celibacy. You can't find the word or any similar advice in any of the Neidan classics. I asked an expert in this field about this subject and he said that this celibacy thing probably came from Buddhist ethics and that sex might just as well be good for the Qi in the human body.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby jaime_g on Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:48 am

Bao wrote:
I-mon wrote:I recently met a guy who can shift the skin (superficial fascia) of his whole body up and down without moving the bones, connecting and moving the microcosmic orbit as a unit down the front and up the back and reversing it,


This skill has nothing to do with Microcosmic Orbit/small heavenly circulation.


It's related in some aspects but not in others.

If I-mon is speaking abot the same thing I think, that kind of microcosmic orbit can be felt as a weird pulse clearly moving inside the body if you touch someone that trains it.

However, the skin shift skill he mentions comes from another kind of orbit training, named macrocosmic in that method. It's different to microcosmic on both methods, goals, and results. If you touch someone that trains that kind of macrocosmic orbit, you can feel the skin moving. It has martial goals and effects.

I do the training, but I'm terrible at it, so cant say more
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