Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Ron Panunto on Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:18 pm

Thanks to everyone who has posted their thoughts on the this topic. The topic was particularly annoying to me in that I was (and still am) doing the microcosmic orbit training without really believing in the "qi" paradigm. My thoughts about the practice are more in line with what T.T. Liang called "Imagination Becomes Reality" and the late posts on Autonomic Training. The point being that intention can have a dramatic effect on the physical body.

Graham B - the video from CZL was right on point. I learned CZL's short form and traditional spear directly from him, but during those times he never spoke of the orbit. In the video he indicated that most folks have some sort of realization, feeling, or enlightenment when the qi passes through the Jade Pillow sticking point. You see, I have been practicing for decades and have never felt anything out of the ordinary. What I gather now is that I shouln't seek a goal, but to just let it happen, and if it happens, that's fine, and if it doesn't, then too bad. My problem is that I'm an engineer by trade and so I am a goal oriented type and it's hard for me to just "let things happen."

What I also learned from this discussion is that the microcosmic orbit can be considered a group of physical processes performed in an interdependent and consistent way, including, but not limited to, inhalation/exhalation linked to opening/closing linked to store/release linked to dantain rotation linked to a mental imagery of circulating energy. This fits more easily into my thinking and gets rid of the woo-woo stuff.

It seems that the majority of the posters were saying the same thing, but coming from different points of view. My task now is to learn to appreciate these different points of view and to try to consolidate them into a practice that works for me. In the past few years I have made considerable progress using dantian rotation to store energy in the lumbar spine with a reverse breathing inhale and then to release it in an explosive and guttural exhale to fajin. The problem is that it's getting to feel so good that I can't stop fajinning the postures in my Yang forms.

So thanks again to everyone who responded because now I know I'm on the right track and I'm feeling REAL GOOD!
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby willie on Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:58 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:Thanks to everyone who has posted their thoughts on the this topic. The topic was particularly annoying to me in that I was (and still am) doing the microcosmic orbit training without really believing in the "qi" paradigm. My thoughts about the practice are more in line with what T.T. Liang called "Imagination Becomes Reality" and the late posts on Autonomic Training. The point being that intention can have a dramatic effect on the physical body.

Graham B - the video from CZL was right on point. I learned CZL's short form and traditional spear directly from him, but during those times he never spoke of the orbit. In the video he indicated that most folks have some sort of realization, feeling, or enlightenment when the qi passes through the Jade Pillow sticking point. You see, I have been practicing for decades and have never felt anything out of the ordinary. What I gather now is that I shouln't seek a goal, but to just let it happen, and if it happens, that's fine, and if it doesn't, then too bad. My problem is that I'm an engineer by trade and so I am a goal oriented type and it's hard for me to just "let things happen."

In the past few years I have made considerable progress using dantian rotation to store energy in the lumbar spine with a reverse breathing inhale and then to release it in an explosive and guttural exhale to fajin. The problem is that it's getting to feel so good that I can't stop fajinning the postures in my Yang forms.

So thanks again to everyone who responded because now I know I'm on the right track and I'm feeling REAL GOOD!
hi Ron, I used to think about the imagery becomes reality too. That part came from my yang style teacher as he also was a student of t t liang. What I have found though is that it is not true. It's just one of those things where there is no solid foundation to the information. So everything is just built on speculation which of course we all know is one error on top of another error.

For me spreading the qi out to the limbs came naturally. It was very easy for me to do and it was very intense. That's why I pursued these arts in the first place. If it's not for the qi, then what is it for? If you want to have a very good experience with qi, try using sensory deprivation. Get yourself some earplugs or just listening to your favorite music on headphones. Ear plugs work well because you will hear what's happening inside your body. I used to do Push Hands either with headphones or earplugs. it's quite an amazing experience.

Do you remember the old movie, 36 Chambers? He said the ears defin the practitioner. Other old movies show the eyes nose and ears all blocked.

Very interesting that you are using Dantian powered fajin in yang style, I would love to see a video of that.
Last edited by willie on Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Ron Panunto on Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:20 pm

willie wrote:Very interesting that you are using Dantian powered fajin in yang style, I would love to see a video of that.


I think that eventually most long time practitioners have to define their own martial art. Mine is morphing into a combination of Yang and Chen Taiji with Xingyi. Take the Yang Simplified 24 Style, which I now do instead of the various Yang long forms that I learned. I have replaced the left heel kick with a rising instep kick (separate legs) because there was none in the form. I replaced the side to side stepping in "wave hands like clouds" with the back stepping done in Chen Xinjia, I added Xingyi stepping to the two "fairly works at shuttles," and replaced "step up, deflect downward, parry and punch with Xingyi's dragon and beng chuan. Sprinkled throughout the form, I fajin when I feel that I have to release the energy that gets stored up through the form - it's almost like you have to cum when sufficiently aroused (pretend that I never said that).

I didn't do this on purpose, but at this point in my progress, "it seemed like the right thing to do."

As far as a video, at my age I have virtually no computer gong fu, so I would have no idea how to film and post a video to the forum, you would have to speak to one of my granddaughters.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby willie on Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:31 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:
willie wrote:Very interesting that you are using Dantian powered fajin in yang style, I would love to see a video of that.


I think that eventually most long time practitioners have to define their own martial art. Mine is morphing into a combination of Yang and Chen Taiji with Xingyi. Take the Yang Simplified 24 Style, which I now do instead of the various Yang long forms that I learned. I have replaced the left heel kick with a rising instep kick (separate legs) because there was none in the form. I replaced the side to side stepping in "wave hands like clouds" with the back stepping done in Chen Xinjia, I added Xingyi stepping to the two "fairly works at shuttles," and replaced "step up, deflect downward, parry and punch with Xingyi's dragon and beng chuan. Sprinkled throughout the form, I fajin when I feel that I have to release the energy that gets stored up through the form - it's almost like you have to cum when sufficiently aroused (pretend that I never said that).

I didn't do this on purpose, but at this point in my progress, "it seemed like the right thing to do."

As far as a video, at my age I have virtually no computer gong fu, so I would have no idea how to film and post a video to the forum, you would have to speak to one of my granddaughters.

Hi Ron. Well it most certainly sounds like you're having fun. I guess that's all that really matters anyways.
Good luck in your training
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby voidisyinyang on Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:04 pm

There are different levels of microcosmic orbit. For example I was doing this while driving today. You keep the tongue against the roof of the mouth. Then you do deep reverse breathing. As the qi goes up to the pineal gland then the cerebrospinal fluid overflows out of the sinus cavity and you swallow this - with the tongue against the roof of the mouth. So as the book Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality teaches - this is the best way to increase the yin qi energy.

The point of the celibacy is that normally food eaten is lost - and so by deep reverse breathing there is purification which then builds up the generative force as yin qi - from the food - through the small universe via the pineal gland. So the heart emits yin qi out of the pineal gland - with the liver as the source - with the eyes open. At night the spirit that goes out of the eyes while open, instead goes to the liver and then will cause that energy to get lost. So the energy has to be cycled through the "small universe" meditation and then stored in the lower tan tien.

So with the eyes closed during meditation - then all that yin qi that is lost out of the eyes instead ionizes the food energy - and through celibacy - then increases the yang qi. The yang qi is what creates the inner fire that is luminous.

But this is not yet the Yuan Qi. So only when the generative force or jing is restored to a 16 year old level does the yuan qi get activated - again through the yin qi and yang qi combined together in the lower tan t'ien. So yuan qi is only created in the lower tan t'ien. And then the "ancestral cavity" (the pineal gland) will emit light as the mysterious gate - in front of the face as the real Tai Chi - the pre-birth soul manifests as the Yuan Shen. This is also called the Moon light as a taste of the yuan qi.

So that is when the macrocosmic orbit opens up and after that the qi will be strong but you have to maintain celibacy to keep it up and then you keep opening up the third eye. So you have to keep cleansing the yang qi and purifying the yin qi and mixing and building it into more yuan qi - and then the light gets stronger. I never got to this stage. If you use your powers then the light gets weaker - like blowing a fuse or short circuiting the wires.

The yuan qi is actually the Zhong Gong - behind the navel - not below the navel. So that is the real lower tan t'ien....

The only way to store up the energy is to go deeper into the vagus nerve - and so this is why breathing goes way down and even heart beat - and the bones get soft and pliable and pulsate with qi - this is called the immortal breathing - from the yuan qi.

This is also called Nirvikalpa samadhi.

So this is why celibacy is necessary for advanced training because any lust activates the sympathetic nervous system - as the biophotons trigger the pineal gland which triggers the hypothalamus which triggers the adrenal glands which trigger the lymphatic nerves that go to the prostates to kick out lecithin. The lecithin myelinates the nerves - so you need celibacy to ionize the lecithin so you nerves can hold greater charge.

So then horse stance will cause an extreme sympathetic nervous system reaction and then a parasympathetic rebound - that will reverse the sympathetic trigger via the eyes of the biophoton or photonic signal to the kidneys - to the prostate and testicles. So this is why standing activate training is key to maintaining celibacy - with the thigh muscles sore - so that the sympathetic trigger gets reversed and the mind emptied out - and the qi stored back up through the vagus nerve.

And so as the qi builds up it is stored in the small intestines as the yuan qi energy.

So for example the palms of the hands have the yuan qi that channels from the inner arms to the heart and then from the eyes to the pineal gland and back to the heart. So then if you do a special mudra it reverses the loss of the energy - and closes off the channels to the palms to send the energy back to the heart for purification - to maintain celibacy - but to do this you also need to rotate the eyes, as the eyes control the yang and yin shen and also the yang and yin qi.

So the microcosmic orbit can be practiced to the highest level - until the yang shen is created.



Robert Peng teaching microcosmic orbit - along with martial arts training - hard qigong demonstration energy
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:55 pm

voidisyinyang wrote:The yuan qi is actually the Zhong Gong - behind the navel - not below the navel. So that is the real lower tan t'ien....


No. You are absolutely wrong. The lower dan tian is a place you learn to feel, physically inside of your body. It's inside the stomach, yes. But it's also lower than the navel. If you don't understand this, it means that you don't feel it, which means that you are either intellectualizing without having put in any real effort. ...or maybe you have practiced wrong and focused on wrong things...

Robert Peng teaching microcosmic orbit - along with martial arts training - hard qigong demonstration energy


The old spear parlor trick has nothing to do with qi. The weak wood is pressed downwards, not against the throat, so there is no pressure against it. The top of the breast bone takes all of the pressure from the blunt fake spear head.

It has absolutely zero to do with qi or qigong practice. I can't believe that anyone who have something like a brain still fall for it the trick and believes in it. (The mechanics are also terribly obvious and easy to spot.)
Last edited by Bao on Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby willie on Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:25 pm

::) Not the marble slabs again.
Last edited by willie on Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:55 pm

Stumbled on this. Due to all of the the "not internal enough" accusations, it's funny to hear a Chen Master, Chen Zhenglei, speaking the absolute truth about micro and macro circulation. He says it all much, much better than any other public teacher I've heard. I've read and heard what Yang Jwing-Ming, Bruce Franzis and a whole lot of other qi-speakers have to say about this issue. But this Mr Chen says it so much better and absolutely what every Tai Chi practitioner who deals with this micro-stuff needs to hear. He explains why and how it comes naturally from Tai Chi practice and why you should not chase it. I have a whole lot of respect for this gent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNUtD_iWZLU
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Giles on Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:07 pm

Guys, just for the sake of clarity it would be better in English to use the terms "abdomen" or "belly" when talking about the general area between the diaphragm and the pelvic floor (or sometimes a little higher, depending on the definition).

Image

The stomach is where your breakfast lands after descending through the oesophagus. Trying to generate physical power from here will probably just result in indigestion and other discomfort. ;)

Image
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:17 pm

Giles wrote:Guys, just for the sake of clarity it would be better in English to use the terms "abdomen" or "belly" when talking about the general area between the diaphragm and the pelvic floor...
...
The stomach is where your breakfast lands after descending through the oesophagus. Trying to generate physical power from here will probably just result in indigestion and other discomfort. ;)


My mistake. Thank you for clearifying the difference in English. In my language why use ”stomach” for all of this area, inside and outside: abdomen, belly and the place where the food digests. ...Will try to improve my English... :P
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby willie on Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:23 pm

Bao wrote:Stumbled on this. Due to all of the the "not internal enough" accusations, it's funny to hear a Chen Master, Chen Zhenglei, speaking the absolute truth about micro and macro circulation. He says it all much, much better than any other public teacher I've heard. I've read and heard what Yang Jwing-Ming, Bruce Franzis and a whole lot of other qi-speakers have to say about this issue. But this Mr Chen says it so much better and absolutely what every Tai Chi practitioner who deals with this micro-stuff needs to hear. He explains why and how it comes naturally from Tai Chi practice and why you should not chase it. I have a whole lot of respect for this gent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNUtD_iWZLU

It's kind of funny that he's warning people away from the practice because of serious deviation or qi sickness. While others are trying to sell it.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby jaime_g on Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:39 pm

This is the physical skill I was talking about, regarding dantian.

http://daixinyi.blogspot.com.es/2012/09 ... 72011.html

How long did it take for your body to adapt to Dai shen fa, meaning where your physical dan tian was distinguishably separate from the other part of the stomach and could noticeably roll?

3 years practicing Dun hou shi and 2 years practicing Bufa

http://daixinyi.blogspot.com.es/2011/04 ... -18th.html

Everyone has heard about Dai styles unique shen fa and dan tian building methods are you willing to go into this more and what is the difference in your opinion in regards to shen fa and dan tian in the other internals?

I can’t go into much detail regarding shen fa and dan tian building methods, to do that I would have to teach you (he made it clear that he was more than willing to teach).

How long did it take for your body to adapt to Dai shen fa, meaning where your physical dan tian was distinguishably separate from the other part of the stomach and could noticeably roll?

3 years

http://daixinyi.blogspot.com.es/2007/12 ... chang.html

JB) What is the best method to check dan tian development?

(YLC) “The best method is for the student to see and to touch the teachers dan tian and to feel it roll. You can’t really talk about dan tian if you don’t have it.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:14 am

voidisyinyang wrote:There are different levels of microcosmic orbit. For example I was doing this while driving today. You keep the tongue against the roof of the mouth. Then you do deep reverse breathing. As the qi goes up to the pineal gland then the cerebrospinal fluid overflows out of the sinus cavity and you swallow this - with the tongue against the roof of the mouth. So as the book Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality teaches - this is the best way to increase the yin qi energy.

If your main focus is on the road then immortality might be in your reach 8-)
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby GrahamB on Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:18 am

Ron Panunto wrote:Thanks to everyone who has posted their thoughts on the this topic. The topic was particularly annoying to me in that I was (and still am) doing the microcosmic orbit training without really believing in the "qi" paradigm. My thoughts about the practice are more in line with what T.T. Liang called "Imagination Becomes Reality" and the late posts on Autonomic Training. The point being that intention can have a dramatic effect on the physical body.

Graham B - the video from CZL was right on point. I learned CZL's short form and traditional spear directly from him, but during those times he never spoke of the orbit. In the video he indicated that most folks have some sort of realization, feeling, or enlightenment when the qi passes through the Jade Pillow sticking point. You see, I have been practicing for decades and have never felt anything out of the ordinary. What I gather now is that I shouln't seek a goal, but to just let it happen, and if it happens, that's fine, and if it doesn't, then too bad. My problem is that I'm an engineer by trade and so I am a goal oriented type and it's hard for me to just "let things happen."

What I also learned from this discussion is that the microcosmic orbit can be considered a group of physical processes performed in an interdependent and consistent way, including, but not limited to, inhalation/exhalation linked to opening/closing linked to store/release linked to dantain rotation linked to a mental imagery of circulating energy. This fits more easily into my thinking and gets rid of the woo-woo stuff.

It seems that the majority of the posters were saying the same thing, but coming from different points of view. My task now is to learn to appreciate these different points of view and to try to consolidate them into a practice that works for me. In the past few years I have made considerable progress using dantian rotation to store energy in the lumbar spine with a reverse breathing inhale and then to release it in an explosive and guttural exhale to fajin. The problem is that it's getting to feel so good that I can't stop fajinning the postures in my Yang forms.

So thanks again to everyone who responded because now I know I'm on the right track and I'm feeling REAL GOOD!


I know what you mean about the engineering background. If you start to think about Tai Chi (and interenal arts) in terms of forces (especially from the ground) a lot of the mystery disappears. I'm also allergic to the hippy dippy new age stuff that has infected Tai Chi... and yet... I also think that there is something there ;D

Looking at Microcosmic circle in engineering terms - I've come to realise that it's tracking the functional forces in the body in the way they are usually used, which is up the back and down the front. Think of a Pi Chuan from XingYi - it goes rise, drill, overturn fall. Which is in, up, out then down. You've got the same thing in a single arm silk reeling circle in Tai Chi, forces come in- Lu, up- Peng, out- Ji then down- An. So the microcosmic circle is tracking functional forces in the way they are normally used in the body. Going from close to open to close again - which is the very thing that gives Tai Chi its name. (you can also use them going the other way - i.e. up the front for things like elbowing somebody behind you). If you're using reverse breathing you can track the forces along the circle.

But in more esoteric terms I was taught how to do the circle back in 2000-2001. This was done in terms of reverse breathing, feeling and sensation. You don't need to use the word Qi, but you have to build up a sensation of something (call it pressure if you like) starting at the dantien, then moving to each point on the circle, one at a time. I did each point until the pressure got strong enough to move to the next point. It took me about 2 months to complete the circle on an in and out breath. I wasn't particularly in a rush and wanted to do it 'right'. Once it's completed there are definite sensation you feel, and health benefits - it feels like recharging your batteries if you stand quietly and do a few circles. After a while it just starts to feel like normal. I can do them as I drive. I just tried to do them as I write this and I can't, because I need to concentrate to write - so I'd say you can do it when doing anything that just requires awareness. I'm loath to explain the exact details of doing it without a teach you can talk to because there are dangers - even though I had a teacher I still messed up and got one bit of it wrong which gave me a feeling of confusion and 'too much in the head' (kind of what CZL was describing). As soon as I reported my problems to my teacher he corrected my mistake and I was fine. So I like to share it with people, but only how to do it in person.

But going back to engineering terms - the more functional use of it I think is in tracking forces in the body.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:29 am

jaime_g wrote:This is the physical skill I was talking about, regarding dantian.


In all XY (not only Dai), from what I have noticed (from what I have read and heard and been taught from xinyi teachers), they do in fact separate what they call physical dantian and non-physical. Or rather, they separate it in different layers, several layers or balls, inner and outer all the way through out to the very back of the spine. I would rather call this "Hara", they chose to call it Dantian. They know what they speak about from their own training and they have their own definitions that work in their own training. It's a very good and clear system from a practical educational POV, but I would believe that you need to train their methods to really understand what they mean and how they use it. IMO, if you put their terminology onto other styles or philosophical systems, you would need to first be able to distinguish the traditions very clearly. But some of it is very useful for IMA in general.

How long did it take for your body to adapt to Dai shen fa, meaning where your physical dan tian was distinguishably separate from the other part of the stomach and could noticeably roll?

3 years practicing Dun hou shi and 2 years practicing Bufa


This is a leading question. If you don't question them further about how they would describe the "physical" dantian and how it's distinguishable from the other parts, it's hard to know what the actually mean and what they answer on. Again, they answer from their own POV according to their own system. Sure, the Dantian can be clearly separated from the rest of the body by internal feeling, but still, I don't think they suggest that this is something that would show up on an x-ray...
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