Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

[Bao]

It's related in some aspects but not in others.

If I-mon is speaking abot the same thing I think, that kind of microcosmic orbit can be felt as a weird pulse clearly moving inside the body if you touch someone that trains it.

However, the skin shift skill he mentions comes from another kind of orbit training, named macrocosmic in that method. It's different to microcosmic on both methods, goals, and results. If you touch someone that trains that kind of macrocosmic orbit, you can feel the skin moving. It has martial goals and effects.

I do the training, but I'm terrible at it, so cant say more

"Macrocosmic Orbit" or "Large Heavenly circulation" means that the qi reaches out through the limbs. The circulation in both micro and macro happens on the inside of the body, not on the top of the skin (though it can certainly reach the skin). What you and I-mon refers to is something else, it has very little (none) to do with circulating the qi throughout the body. Moving your skin says nothing about how much qi you have stored and accumulated through any kind of practice. I have nothing against other kinds of practice if it has a good practical use, but I don't like confusing together vastly different kinds of exercises and terminologies.

[I-mon]

I'm not really too fussed about the definitions. For meditation purposes, the ability to feel what is occurring physiologically up and down the front and back and middle of the body's central axis is an important and fascinating skill to develop, and along with the ability to feel the physiological changes comes a growing understanding of the psychological correlates of those changes, and also then an ability to influence those changes by manipulating the attention, the breath, the emotions, and the autonomic responses directly.

To my mind, the ability to move the muscles bones and joints all the way along the pathways is a good preliminary indicator of whether or not a person can actually feel what is happening there internally or not, since if they can't feel and move the relatively gross superficial joints and muscular tissues then their ability to feel and influence the more subtle internal processes is questionable. The ability to move the skin and superficial fascia all the way along the pathways is also an indication to me that the person's intent is able to reach and penetrate those areas, and, if the intent can move there, and the qi (or change in the physiology) follows the intent, then obviously the qi flow will be affected as well.

The OP was asking specifically about how this Daoist practice might relate to martial arts, and I would say that this is one interesting and practical way that the concept has been taken from the religious tradition and been put to a martial use, even if the original meaning or purpose have been changed along the way.

[jaime_g]

I have nothing against other kinds of practice if it has a good practical use, but I don't like confusing together vastly different kinds of exercises and terminologies.

I understand your point. Personally I'm comfortable with different methods calling different things under the same name. It happens all the time in internal arts. One only needs to compare piquan between different xingyi schools to find practices that use almost opposite body methods while all of them call it piquan.

Another example, related with the macrocosmic orbit mentioned, would be dantian rotation. I have seen so many different things labeled as dantian rotation that I no longer care about the style differences, explanations, and terminologies.. I'm only interested on touching the guy rotating his dantian to feel if we are doing the same or not.

[willie]

I suppose impressions/effects are highly individualized, not to mention differences between MA, qigong, yoga, or new age geeks .
I train directing the qi thru meridians / it including DU and Ren meridians, aka >orbit</, 20 years +.
Our all meridians are open all the time, `cause we are livin`
Block/s/, pain on the track doesn`t mean -break/pause, just showing area of the affected stream.

Success?
hmmm,
I dont`t getting cold/flu any more during changing of the seasons.
and
my shoesoles wearing out evenly.

I-mon -very good post.

Hi wiesiek, is there any proof of why you don't get sick anymore?

[willie]

I have nothing against other kinds of practice if it has a good practical use, but I don't like confusing together vastly different kinds of exercises and terminologies.

I understand your point. Personally I'm comfortable with different methods calling different things under the same name. It happens all the time in internal arts. One only needs to compare piquan between different xingyi schools to find practices that use almost opposite body methods while all of them call it piquan.

Another example, related with the macrocosmic orbit mentioned, would be dantian rotation. I have seen so many different things labeled as dantian rotation that I no longer care about the style differences, explanations, and terminologies.. I'm only interested on touching the guy rotating his dantian to feel if we are doing the same or not.

Hi Jaime, I'm kind of the opposite now. I am very much turned off and refuse to listen to most internal information that I see. The reason being is, the level of reliability of the information in the first place is unknown. Let's say that you meet some teacher and that teacher sits down and starts doing something and calls it this or that. Now the students just simply follow suit without question. No one knows if what that teacher is doing has any validity to it at all.

[jaime_g]

That's why I said that I need to touch the other guy

[LaoDan]

Ron,

Good questions and humbly presented – nice.

I think that for usage in a martial art, the microcosmic orbit can be useful since it ties energetics (qi flow...) in the body with numerous physical requirements, at least for TJQ. But if one maintains the physical body requirements, then I am not sure that being able to feel qi circulation is particularly needed. Many that focus on feeling qi flow seem to delude themselves – it can be difficult to separate actual sensations from imagined ones.

As I understand this, we should absorb/sink down the yin (ventral/front) surface of the torso while expanding/projecting from the yang surface (dorsal/back). Thus we have various body requirements: lift the back and concave the chest; sink qi to the dantien and raise qi to the crown of the head; use the mingmen (and the spine) to project; etc.

If one can maintain the various postural requirements, then one likely has the energetic circulation as well, regardless of whether or not a special qi flow sensations are felt. But having the energetic flow should help with the postural requirements.

[Bob]

Everyone should go back about 10 years or so and read some of Ron's earlier thoughts LOL

[Franklin]

Everyone should go back about 10 years or so and read some of Ron's earlier thoughts LOL

lol

thats why I wrote:

if you are not trolling...
here is my answer

[Bao]

To my mind, the ability to move the muscles bones and joints all the way along the pathways is a good preliminary indicator of whether or not a person can actually feel what is happening there internally or not, since if they can't feel and move the relatively gross superficial joints and muscular tissues then their ability to feel and influence the more subtle internal processes is questionable. The ability to move the skin and superficial fascia all the way along the pathways is also an indication to me that the person's intent is able to reach and penetrate those areas, and, if the intent can move there, and the qi (or change in the physiology) follows the intent, then obviously the qi flow will be affected as well.

To physically move some part of the body is a matter of practice a certain area of the body. It has nothing to do with opening the channels and gates for the qi to flow. It has nothing to do with micro or macro circulation. Internal awareness and body awareness is always great. But this is about something else. The qi flow affected in certain areas you practice is not the same as what is meant by micro or macro circulation.

If you think what you are doing has a value, then that's fine and I will certainly acknowledge and respect your practice. But there are also other types of practice that is also well worth consideration and respect. If you are not concerned by the original practice or the philosophy, then why not let the people interested in this practice retain the terms for themselves? Keeping different things apart helps everyone who wants to discover one or the other type of practice.

I have nothing against other kinds of practice if it has a good practical use, but I don't like confusing together vastly different kinds of exercises and terminologies.

I understand your point. Personally I'm comfortable with different methods calling different things under the same name. It happens all the time in internal arts.

If people can call things anything they want, the concepts will soon lose value and meaning. The 3 Dantian concept is an old Daoist Neidan specific concept with its own theory and its own goals. I refuse to call anything dantian or qi circulation that is outside from the original philosophy.

Another example... would be dantian rotation... I'm only interested on touching the guy rotating his dantian to feel if we are doing the same or not.

It's not the Dantian you feel rotating, just his stomach. Dantian is a spot inside the body, not on the outside.

Again, there are old definitions. And there are reasons and a meaning for these definitions. The knowledge will soon be completely lost if it's not acknowledged. Better to keep things apart, clearly separate different practices with different names. Everyone will benefit from it.

[jaime_g]

It's not the Dantian you feel rotating, just his stomach. Dantian is a spot inside the body, not on the outside.

Let's say it's just the stomach. You can ask any number of people to roll their stomachs and they arent going to get anything useful for martial arts. The skill is real, so it needs to involve something more than rolling the stomach, otherwise it would be much more common.

If someone is rolling his stomach and you can feel his shins or forearms being affected and changed by the rotation, something is happening between the stomach area rolling and the limbs changing. If someone is rolling his stomach and that drives a huge amount of force with very little external movement, something is happening that relates the movement with the result. Nothing happens when untrained people try to mimic the rolling.

So it must be something besides just rolling the stomach

If different styles (for example, chen tcc, hebei xingyi, dai xinyi) call the same skill dantian rotation, I dont have reasons to call it with a different name

Can dantian and dantian rotation mean completely different things to other traditions? I'm completely sure

[Bao]

Let's say it's just the stomach. You can ask any number of people to roll their stomachs and they arent going to get anything useful for martial arts. The skill is real, so it needs to involve something more than rolling the stomach, otherwise it would be much more common.

No, it's just the stomach. Muscle isolation practice. Very common in modern yoga. There's nothing mystical about it, no meditation necessary or qi involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1qLnXgOLNo

[jaime_g]

Ok, if it's that, why you cant find any yoga guy achieving anything martial related with that work?
How can stomach muscle isolation change and move tissue on your limbs? It cant
It's a different work.

[Bao]

Ok, if it's that, why you cant find any yoga guy achieving anything martial related with that work?

I haven't asked any yoga practitioner or tried to punch one.

How can stomach muscle isolation change and move tissue on your limbs? It cant
It's a different work.

Moving tissue on the limbs should be the same type of practice, muscle isolation practice. If you don't need qi to do something, why bothering explaining it with qi? I like to de-mystify things, explain things as simple as possible.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. The goal of neidan practice is to work with pre-heavenly qi, not ordinary post-heavenly qi that all modern qigong practice is concerned with. So even if what you speak about has something to do with aspects of qi (which I don't believe for one second), that practice would still be irrelevant to micro and macro orbit practice. They would still not work with the same aspects of qi.

[wayne hansen]

The schools I have learned noi gung in all three require 120 days of sexual abstinence
It may not be necessary but it was a requirement and I find it was worthwhile from the point of eating bitter
As was the 24 day fast I did in concert
I would have to see someone moving the skin independently to believe it
What tradition did this guy follow to achieve it
This is also the opposite to micro/macro circle they are internal moving the skin is external
The purpose of m/m circulation is meditation all and nervous system control
It will help tai chi on a level like any meditation practice but I don't see any physical advantage if that's what you seek
What is your aim in this practice