Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:38 am

willie wrote:Actually I think that it's about control.


Just like every time I write something that has to do with practical practice, it has very little to do with intellectual theory or with what other people say. It’s about my own practical experience. I reflect what I see through myself and through my own experience. I’ve been there, practiced, trained, tried to become strong and tried to learn external methods. Every time I have tried any kind of hard method, it has screwed up my Tai Chi. Other people might have other experience and yet others might be more gifted than me and might even make it work. :P
Last edited by Bao on Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby willie on Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:11 am

Bao wrote:
willie wrote:Actually I think that it's about control.


Just like every time I write something that has to do with practical practice, it has very little to do with intellectual theory or with what other people say. It’s about my own practical experience. I reflect what I see through myself and through my own experience. I’ve been there, practiced, trained, tried to become strong and tried to learn external methods. Every time I have tried any kind of hard method, it has screwed up my Tai Chi. Other people might have other experience and yet others might be more gifted than me and might even make it work. :P


O.K. This guy here. I believe he was taught by one of my teachers, teachers. Master Lu Ping
He appears to have a very good transmission of Yang style, with fajin..
In one of his video's he speaks of weight training. I don't have time to look for it right now, but If I remember correctly he said that "weight training only make your
taichi better".
I like this guys yang taichi.
Last edited by willie on Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:51 am

He’s alright.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby willie on Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:22 am

Bao wrote:He’s alright.

He's a lot more than just alright. He is actually teaching what is supposed to be Tai Chi. Do you see the way that his hands are moving when he has them both in a clenched fist? That is actually from Chen Style. He has a closer representation of the original yang in my opinion. Do you also see him drilling over and over the same exact move? This is what you're supposed to be doing, not free style Push Hands. Freestyle Push Hands is necessary for development , but if you want to truly understand Tai Chi you have to know and be able to apply the applications . This is Tai Chi
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:45 pm

willie wrote:Do you also see him drilling over and over the same exact move? Freestyle Push Hands is necessary for development, but if you want to truly understand Tai Chi you have to know and be able to apply the applications.


Agreed.

...Though he could make the application better... He should block and strike at the same time or drag him down first. Blocking first and then letting go of the opponent’s arm makes no sense, you lose control and give the opponent an opportunity to withdraw. How he does it wouldn’t work well against a moving opponent.

He’s alright.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby willie on Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:42 pm

Bao wrote:
willie wrote:Do you also see him drilling over and over the same exact move? Freestyle Push Hands is necessary for development, but if you want to truly understand Tai Chi you have to know and be able to apply the applications.


Agreed.

...Though he could make the application better... He should block and strike at the same time or drag him down first. Blocking first and then letting go of the opponent’s arm makes no sense, you lose control and give the opponent an opportunity to withdraw. How he does it wouldn’t work well against a moving opponent.

He’s alright.

Honestly Bao, I highly doubt that you agree with me, but thanks for trying to keep the peace anyways.
Ya see, I read your writing and understand you pretty well I think. And going by your writing pretty much signifies my original Tai Chi Style which was based on heaven or a solid line. The solid line never releases, instead it follows a path way no matter where it goes all the way to a conclusion. However, the segmented style that you see him applying is far superior as far as striking is concerned. First he gathers energy along a 3D pathway, then he transforms that energy into fajin for striking.
Last edited by willie on Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:14 pm

Honestly Bao, I highly doubt that you agree with me, but thanks for trying to keep the peace anyways.


Applications practice and drilling applications was for many years something I did every class and outside class. But the focus was always about principle first and my teacher’s method was ridiculously meticulous on paying attention to details. He always reminded about relaxation, posture, balance, timing, angles, coordination and much more. The tiniest little thing that was a slightly bit off, he would notice and correct. The principles were drilled over many years through applications practice. I am not a fan of shallow technical drilling, but if applications is used to drill a correct tai chi shenfa, a body method, then I am a big friend of drilling applications.

However, the segmented style that you see him applying is far superior as far as striking is concerned. First he gathers energy along a 3D pathway, then he transforms that energy into fajin for striking.


I don’t mind practicing like the way he does on a rudimentary level. Learning how to store energy and release is important. But I don’t believe that the way how he does it here is very practical or useful. The change from gathering and release is too big, too slow and too obvious. Chen stylists don’t mind evident strength and they can certainly achieve great power from their method. Yang style strive to hide movement and intention and rather relies on unpredictability and suddenness. I like the Yang method as Li YaXuan describes it below. My Chinese teacher expressed it very similar but in his own way, that you must learn hide your movements and internalize them.

Taijiquan is a skill with shape and without shape. Although it has shape when an opponent attacks you, your whole body must be very reserved and display nearly nothing in there. ... Taijiquan is a skill based on unpredictable opportunity. If the other thinks you cannot attack, you should just move your mind suddenly to attack. If others think you will come then you should transform as if you have nothing to attack. This is the so-called "being suddenly visible; suddenly invisible.”


https://www.qi-journal.com/Taiji.asp?-t ... %20&-Op=bw
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby willie on Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:24 pm

Bao wrote:
I don’t mind practicing like the way he does on a rudimentary level. Learning how to store energy and release is important. But I don’t believe that the way how he does it here is very practical or useful. The change from gathering and release is too big, too slow and too obvious. Chen stylists don’t mind evident strength and they can certainly achieve great power from their method. Yang style strive to hide movement and intention that you must learn hide your movements and internalize them.

Taijiquan is a skill with shape and without shape. Although it has shape when an opponent attacks you, your whole body must be very reserved and display nearly nothing in there. ... Taijiquan is a skill based on unpredictable opportunity. If the other thinks you cannot attack, you should just move your mind suddenly to attack. If others think you will come then you should transform as if you have nothing to attack. This is the so-called "being suddenly visible; suddenly invisible.”


Perhaps your looking threw a shaded glass?
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Tue May 01, 2018 1:40 am

Maybe you should try to look beyond the superficial?
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Trick on Tue May 01, 2018 1:59 am

Bao wrote:
Applications practice and drilling applications was for many years something I did every class and outside class. But the focus was always about principle first and my teacher’s method was ridiculously meticulous on paying attention to details. He always reminded about relaxation, posture, balance, timing, angles, coordination and much more. The tiniest little thing that was a slightly bit off, he would notice and correct. The principles were drilled over many years through applications practice. I am not a fan of shallow technical drilling, but if applications is used to drill a correct tai chi shenfa, a body method, then I am a big friend of drilling applications.

Bao may I ask who was/is your teacher in Sweden, did you learn Sun Taiji in Sweden? Down in Malmö or even the whole southern region in the turn 80's/90's was to say at least sparse of TJQ and even more so with Taiji as you describe above, don't know how it is nowadays
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Tue May 01, 2018 3:12 am

Trick wrote:Bao may I ask who was/is your teacher in Sweden, did you learn Sun Taiji in Sweden? Down in Malmö or even the whole southern region in the turn 80's/90's was to say at least sparse of TJQ and even more so with Taiji as you describe above, don't know how it is nowadays


I studied Yang Tai Chi from 1987 forwards. Sun Style, I started to learn about the year 2000. My first Tai Chi teacher in 87, was a guy at the local tax office, I studied for him in private for one year before he got more students. I studied with him, and later with his teacher Bill who came from the US and had studied Tai chi there since the middle of the 60s from a Chinese teacher. I’ve also studied with this Bill’s teacher and with several of his students. My first teacher has also studied with William Chen. The Sun form, I also learned originally from my first teacher, but I’ve studied with others, both Yang and Sun styles in Sweden and in China. When I first started practicing Tai Chi, I had never heard about it before. I just looked for studying martial arts and found it by coincidence. First one or two years later it started to become more well recognized, but only as a health exercise. Most of my teacher’s students the following years had watched “If Tomorrow Comes,” it was a big hit on Swedish TV (She perform Yang form in the intro sequence).

I haven’t had any teacher the last few years and I am not looking for anyone. Nowadays I just meet friends then and then, as well as a couple of my former students, and practice with them. Don’t have time for anything regular. Maybe I’ll start another class later.
Last edited by Bao on Tue May 01, 2018 3:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Trick on Tue May 01, 2018 6:29 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Bao may I ask who was/is your teacher in Sweden, did you learn Sun Taiji in Sweden? Down in Malmö or even the whole southern region in the turn 80's/90's was to say at least sparse of TJQ and even more so with Taiji as you describe above, don't know how it is nowadays


I studied Yang Tai Chi from 1987 forwards. Sun Style, I started to learn about the year 2000. My first Tai Chi teacher in 87, was a guy at the local tax office, I studied for him in private for one year before he got more students. I studied with him, and later with his teacher Bill who came from the US and had studied Tai chi there since the middle of the 60s from a Chinese teacher. I’ve also studied with this Bill’s teacher and with several of his students. My first teacher has also studied with William Chen. The Sun form, I also learned originally from my first teacher, but I’ve studied with others, both Yang and Sun styles in Sweden and in China. When I first started practicing Tai Chi, I had never heard about it before. I just looked for studying martial arts and found it by coincidence. First one or two years later it started to become more well recognized, but only as a health exercise. Most of my teacher’s students the following years had watched “If Tomorrow Comes,” it was a big hit on Swedish TV (She perform Yang form in the intro sequence).

I haven’t had any teacher the last few years and I am not looking for anyone. Nowadays I just meet friends then and then, as well as a couple of my former students, and practice with them. Don’t have time for anything regular. Maybe I’ll start another class later.

Bill? as Bill Dockens(spelling?), heard of him in the late 90's from a Aikido teacher who said only good things about him and his teaching. The "If Yomorrow Comes" I can not recall(had to look it up),Shogun was the TV mini series that made a big impression on me back then :)
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Tue May 01, 2018 6:54 am

That's him. An amazing practitioner. Though I've enjoyed studying with a few of his students and his teacher even more. I haven't met him in 20 years, he must be about 85 now. But from what I've seen recorded, he moves very good for his age and he has a lot of skill left.
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- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby willie on Tue May 01, 2018 11:55 am

:)
Last edited by willie on Tue May 01, 2018 9:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Microcosmis Orbit Training as Part of Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Tue May 01, 2018 12:12 pm

willie wrote:This is another old video of me.
Once the rivers of energy meet at the tributary, then any amount of force is still taiji...
A quick "LIVE, No planning" session on imbalances in the body that can be taking advantage of.
P.S. Not my school and not my student.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYHC33XbE9M


I liked the vid. You seem to have good control. Though not a difficult move, especially not when someone is stiff and resists without trying to change. But again, a nice and controlled execution of the technique.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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