Excellent ground game

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Excellent ground game

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:41 am

Good grip fight and good ground game. Your thought?



It only needs one successful take down to end the standing up striking game.

Last edited by johnwang on Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:24 pm

What's shown in the first clip isn't really my cup of tea. When a grappling match lasts 20 minutes, you know they are just playing and not fighting. The intensity level is too low.

In terms of stand-up grappling, I believe that Sumo wrestling actually provides a competition format that is far more realistic and similar to actual fighting. Like a real fight, sumo matches are extremely intense and require short bursts of explosive energy. (Most matches are over in less than 10 seconds.) Sumo wrestlers are also allowed to strike to the head using open hands, and even pushing/shoveling the opponent's throat is fair game. Sometimes you also see wrestlers get knocked out cold, which is rare in other grappling sports where striking of any kind is usually considered illegal.

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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Dmitri on Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:49 pm

C.J.W. wrote:What's shown in the first clip isn't really my cup of tea. When a grappling match lasts 20 minutes, you know they are just playing and not fighting. The intensity level is too low.

Heh, it's like we were watching different clips... The intensity in the first clip was extremely high IMO.

Or maybe we mean different things by "intensity"... Of course they weren't trying to kill each other there... For that kind of "intensity*, -- watch someone less-skilled, like a no-rules backyard brawl.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Bao on Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:10 am

C.J.W. wrote:What's shown in the first clip isn't really my cup of tea. ... The intensity level is too low.


Agreed. In the first match, they start off in a clearly friendly manner. Which is also a good thing for sport. As it’s a controlled sport we are talking about, not fighting. I am not interested in watching all of it, but they clearly starts off with a sport mind-set and not a fighting mind-set. Which again is a good thing for sports.

In terms of stand-up grappling, I believe that Sumo wrestling actually provides a competition format that is far more realistic and similar to actual fighting.


Absolutely 100% agreed.

There is no holding back, no waiting, no hesitation. They go in 100% right from the start. Most great boxers and western wrestlers do the same. Just look at Tyson, he always went in to knock down his opponent as fast as possible. Holding back was not even something in his vocabulary.

(One of my teachers complained about Tyson, stating that what he does is not “art”. ;D )
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Dmitri on Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:56 am

Bao wrote:There is no holding back, no waiting, no hesitation. They go in 100% right from the start.

If you think the guys in the first clip didn't go at 100% there, you're very wrong IMO. It's just their skills matched closely enough; if you or I went there against either one of them, we'd feel all that intensity right away and the fight would be over rather quickly. ;)
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Steve James on Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:27 am

Well, afa the video, it's just wrasslin'. You could call it Greco-Roman or just stand-up. I agree with Dmitri about the effort. But, I don't think that they go 100% the way people in sumo bouts do. This is more like the difference between long distance and sprint running. However, the average guy is no match for the average college wrestling team member.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby willie on Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:05 am

Excellent match 100% there.
Good stand up grappling from arm and collar and good ground grappling and ground defense A++
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:26 am

The comments from people with no significant competition history never get old.

As John and others pointed out, good stuff.

Sumo (which I did since childhood) is great, but the rules are very different which leads to a very different expression. A real finish, while possible, is very rare. The main way to win is pushing or lifting your opponent out of the Dohyo. After that, getting anything other than the bottom of your opponent's feet to touch the ground. Pointing to the very rare occasion of knockouts is very misleading.

I would say that I would have liked a bit more aggression from the players in the first video, but this is style and tactics.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:27 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:The comments from people with no significant competition history never get old.


I suppose the same can be said of people with no significant experience in actual combat/street violence and train with a sport mentality. ;)

Don't get me wrong, I think MMA and competitive grappling provide excellent venues for people to hone their fighting skills. However, what I see in the first clip is just two people who grapple for the sake of grappling -- without any serious attempts to execute a good throw, choke, lock in order to finish the match or to get back on their feet after landing on the ground.

Yes, I know they may be excellent grapplers/fighters, and yes, I understand they were probably just sparring, feeling each other out, and having fun. But like I said, what they did in this particular match just ain't my cup of tea.

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Pointing to the very rare occasion of knockouts is very misleading.


I pointed out the occasional knockouts to illustrate the fact that striking with open hands, even to the head, is allowed in Sumo, not to claim that it is the norm.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:12 am

Steve James wrote:This is more like the difference between long distance and sprint running.


Good analogy. 8-)
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:32 am

I suppose the same can be said of people with no significant experience in actual combat/street violence and train with a sport mentality. ;)


I am not sure about that. I never faced prolonged combat (as in a war zone), but I did mix it up quite a bit all throughout my twenties and before. Lifestyle changes and my distaste for the hoosegow changed that and I simultaneously started competing at the university level (edit: from my late twenties onward). I have never seen significant evidence to support the "too deadly for the ring" arguments, and I probably had too many street scraps for anyone's good.

Don't get me wrong, I think MMA and competitive grappling provide excellent venues for people to hone their fighting skills. However, what I see in the first clip is just two people who grapple for the sake of grappling -- without any serious attempts to execute a good throw, choke, lock in order to finish the match or to get back on their feet after landing on the ground.


I think I can agree with this assessment. Sorry if I glossed over your intent from the earlier post. As I mentioned, the match was not to my liking for the reasons you mention. But, I think that's just an expression within these rules.

And, as I mentioned, I think Osumo is great. It should, however, be paired with other things, IMO. Although I think the line has pretty much been lost, the first generation of Danzan Ryu had a great curriculum: judo, jujitsu, sumo, kappo-sappo (healing and some black hand stuff), and other stuff. All of that mixed up with competition against multiple styles and venues made for some tough people in the first couple of generations.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby GrahamB on Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:49 am

It's really hard to appreciate a BJJ match if you don't understand the rules/know what you're looking at.

Interesting to contrast the styles in the OP with Kron Gracie:



He spends about the first 5 minutes just trying to get the guy into his closed guard, from where he does his best work. Eventually, it pays off.

Nobody good is going to let you put them in closed guard - you have to trick them into it using cunning and guile.

To some people that's riveting, to others it's like watching paint dry.

I guess when a Lion stalks zebra, or a crocodile is waiting to ambush a deer, there's a lot of waiting around, creeping up, getting in place, waiting, waiting, then finally some action and it's all over. Same thing?
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby RobP3 on Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:36 am

GrahamB wrote:
I guess when a Lion stalks zebra, or a crocodile is waiting to ambush a deer, there's a lot of waiting around, creeping up, getting in place, waiting, waiting, then finally some action and it's all over. Same thing?


No, that's the reals streetz, not sports :D
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:06 am

In my yesterday's class, my students asked me if I have any favor ground game. I shown them my "side mount head squeeze". This just remind me that I have not seen any BJJ guys ever use it.

The "side mount head squeeze" is not commonly used in the ground game. I assume people don't train head squeeze at all. If you can squeeze your opponent's jaw or temple and force him to tap out within 2 seconds, you can end the ground game soon.

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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:33 am

Well, there's the neck crank --and it can be a dangerous hold.
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