Excellent ground game

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Dmitri on Wed May 02, 2018 6:26 pm

Just as a side note... A knife stab may not be a very good example of whether pain-tolerance-based techniques are useful. I can feel pain from someone pinching my forearm skin with their fingers, or I can feel pain from someone trying to bend my finger backwards. The qualitative difference between those is not in the amount of pain, but in the amount of potential damage each of them presents. The first one may be more painful than the second one, but the second one would cause a lot more damage (is much more dangerous). So I could tolerate the first one with relative ease (you can use your mind to "turn down" some of those pain signals), but I wouldn't try to tolerate the second one very long. The knife stab example is that second kind of pain... There real threat is the potential damage that a technique can cause; pain's importance is always secondary to that.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Steve James on Wed May 02, 2018 7:28 pm

Knife wounds aren't necessarily painful while they're happening. People sometimes only realize afterward that they've been stabbed. They might think they've been punched. Knives aren't that good for pain compliance. If the other guy has a knife, he can still kill you long after being cut. Of course, the exceptions are stabs to arteries or the airway; shock and blood loss will -may-- force someone to stop. Pain compliance only works if the goal is a submission, anyway. Pain won't stop someone from fighting back if their life's in danger.

It's interesting. The old carny and catch wrestlers depended on finishing moves, not submissions. That wasn't to be mean. It was because they fought in contests open to all comers --where there could be lots of amateur challengers and no time limit for a match. So, they had holds to put people out of competition quickly. They put on a heel hook to tear some ligaments, at least.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby bartekb on Thu May 03, 2018 1:56 am

johnwang wrote:Someone said that pain can only make people mad but cannot make people to tap out. When you stab a knife into your opponent's chest, the deeper that you stab, the more pain you can generate. During that process, if you ask your opponent whether he is willing to quite, or you should stab your knife deeper, most of the time, he will say stop it and I give up.

Its not the pain that makes people give up - its the lack of conbtrol over their body and situation.
Year ago - I was holding a person down waiting for police to arrive in rear naked choke, I did not want him to choke out so the choke was relaxed, just enough so he cant get out - he bit hard in my forearm, bit off a patch of skin - my first initial reaction - wihout thinking - was to squeeze the choke as hard as possible. Pain just encouraged me.

Likewise I can endure quite a lot of pain if for example I know Im winning and just need to wait a bit more - ie. I am advancing my position and someone applies a painful pressure to my jaw that I know wont choke me out. (I actually have permanent "click" my jaw does now just because of such situation:))
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu May 03, 2018 2:05 am

Pain compliance can and does work in many situations. We used to teach it to LEOs and got lots of positive feedback.

You just need a back up as it may not work in all situations.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 03, 2018 3:57 am

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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby willie on Thu May 03, 2018 6:52 am

The right kind of aggression and determination to finish.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby bartekb on Thu May 03, 2018 12:52 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Pain compliance can and does work in many situations. We used to teach it to LEOs and got lots of positive feedback.

Yes, it works wonders if your position and control is superior - if your position is inferior the opponent can always choose to do more pain and damage to you than you do to him.
Pain can be also used to force an opponent to move away from pain - tricky part is sometimes the direction he chooses - if he is smart/trained - can actualy improve his position.
Pain is very unreliable.

One of the best examples of how pain is unreliable is Yuki Nakai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntD8kpbN1qQ
his eye was basicaly gouged completelly - did not stop him, did not stop his submission.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby C.J.W. on Thu May 03, 2018 9:45 pm

willie wrote:The right kind of aggression and determination to finish.



Nice. Good job on Shamrock's part for dragging Henderson out of his Greco-Roman comfort zone by going in for the leg lock.

It also shows how the grappling game has evolved in the past 20 years. Nowadays you'd be hard put to find a submission grappler, regardless of style, who doesn't know how to apply or counter a leg lock.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby willie on Thu May 03, 2018 9:59 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
willie wrote:The right kind of aggression and determination to finish.



Nice. Good job on Shamrock's part for dragging Henderson out of his Greco-Roman comfort zone by going in for the leg lock.

It also shows how the grappling game has evolved in the past 20 years. Nowadays you'd be hard put to find a submission grappler, regardless of style, who doesn't know how to apply or counter a leg lock.

They had counters for leg locks back then too. Frank used to come out to my old Shihan's MMA School once in awhile. They are good friends. That is pretty much how aggressive my old MMA school was in grappling. Really good effective stuff, lots of injuries though. We also had the stand-up Greco-Roman influence as well. We did a lot of work from arm and collar. A lot of that stuff was being used in pancrase.
Last edited by willie on Fri May 04, 2018 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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