Excellent ground game

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Excellent ground game

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:53 am

Steve James wrote:Well, there's the neck crank --and it can be a dangerous hold.

Because your opponent's arms and chin, most of the time it's hard to reach to his neck. Also you can only choke the throat, if you squeeze the side of the neck, it won't cause any pain.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby marvin8 on Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:08 am

GrahamB wrote:It's really hard to appreciate a BJJ match if you don't understand the rules/know what you're looking at.

Interesting to contrast the styles in the OP with Kron Gracie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7D0JNFsE6g

He spends about the first 5 minutes just trying to get the guy into his closed guard, from where he does his best work. Eventually, it pays off.

Nobody good is going to let you put them in closed guard - you have to trick them into it using cunning and guile.

To some people that's riveting, to others it's like watching paint dry.

I guess when a Lion stalks zebra, or a crocodile is waiting to ambush a deer, there's a lot of waiting around, creeping up, getting in place, waiting, waiting, then finally some action and it's all over. Same thing?

(The general concept applies to stand up, too.)

Joe Rogan News
Published on Jan 15, 2018

John Danaher Aka Joda, Aka Morpheus took Joe Rogan to school on the 4 basic Tenets making Rogan look baffled at times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BQDJFlPZqY

Excerpt from "Position Before Submission," https://www.graciebarra.com/aus/super_c ... ubmission/:
Carlos Gracie Jr. on November 5, 2014 wrote:3 Ways this advice can help your submission game.

This is one of the pieces of jiu-jitsu wisdom that is communicated to new students at the bjj academy early in their learning. There are several different meanings to this simple piece of advice.

1) There is a positional hierarchy in bjj and the dominant positions are much more advantageous to attempt a submission from, than from an inferior position.

In fact, attempting to submit your opponent from an inferior position, such as bottom of side control or inside the opponent’s guard will usually result in you being submitted!

I recently observed a white belt student trying to choke the opponent from inside the opponent’s closed guard. Worse, I saw another student attepting to cross collar choke the opponent while the opponent was fully mounted!
Predictably, an armlock soon followed.

I explained that this was a poor strategy, as the person on bottom could easily armlock the extended arms of the person attempting the choke. Furthermore, the person on top (in guard) was wasting energy trying to submit from a poor position that they could use far more effectively trying to advance their position by passing the guard.

2) Everyone loves the submission in jiu-jitsu. Nobody makes highlight videos of great posture or good defense!

But the truth is the submission is a small period of time in most matches between similarly skilled opponents. 95% of the match will be spent battling for the dominant position.

More of the match is spent trying to pass the guard or prevent the escape of the opponent than any other area.

Similarly, in a soccer match, how much of the time is spent actually striking / trying to score on the goal vs. getting the ball and attacker in position to even attempt that kick?

You can’t expect to be successful with your submission unless you are attacking from one of those superior positions (see Tip #1) therefore it makes much more sense to spend more of your training time learning your positioning and control than the more sexy submissions.

Most blue belts have this realization and decide to focus their rolling more on positional control and transitions.

By all means, practice your submission skills, but understand that you can’t submit unless you can GET TO your submission position!
Examine your routes on HOW you are getting to your submission positions.

3) Lunging for the submission

This is a problem I see most often with students with close to a year or more of training.

At this level, they know several submissions and have a good knowledge of positions and guard passing.

They pass the opponent’s guard and as soon as they are in side control – before completely flattening out the opponent and controlling the head – they try to snatch an armlock.
The opponent on the bottom makes a powerful bridge and escapes the bottom and both the side control and armlock opportunity are lost.

The mistake? In trying immediately for the submission, they skipped a crucial step: getting full side control of the opponent BEFORE going for the armlock.

It is tempting to try to use speed to catch the submission, but your opponent’s defense will nearly always be faster than your offense.

As a consequence you miss your submission and also lose the position. All of that work for nothing!

Instead, pay more attention to controlling your opponent, preventing their avenues of escape and then more methodically (and successfully) attack with your submission!

My first judo instructor gave me some solid advice that I remember to this day: “Control the opponent. Once you can control them completely, then you can move to the submission at any time.”
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:13 am

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:Well, there's the neck crank --and it can be a dangerous hold.

Because your opponent's arms and chin, most of the time it's hard to reach to his neck. Also you can only choke the throat, if you squeeze the side of the neck, it won't cause any pain.


It's called the scarf hold (Kesagatame) in Judo and some forms of jujutsu. It's the first pin taught and is quite effective. There are many submissions that can be done from here, although I have never had anyone squeeze my head with much effect. That would be interesting.

Some of the more common submissions include: strangle or choke, neck crank, shoulder lock, elbow lock. There are others.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby grzegorz on Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:41 pm

When JW squeezes your head, it feels like this.

Image
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Bill on Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:53 pm

back mount head squeeze

Image

As John says, when you try for a rear naked choke your opponent can lower his chin so you cannot get to his throat, you can move the choke to the jaw/head and get a pain tap. It works in class but a pro wouldn't tap to it.
It hurts when I Pi
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Greg J on Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:59 pm

Bao wrote:
... they clearly starts off with a sport mind-set and not a fighting mind-set.



Hi Bao,

What do you believe is the difference between the two? How was the different mindset manifested here?

C.J.W. wrote:

However, what I see in the first clip is just two people who grapple for the sake of grappling -- without any serious attempts to execute a good throw, choke, lock in order to finish the match or to get back on their feet after landing on the ground.



Hi C.J.W.,

I saw lots of serious attempts at all four. I believe their inability to finish had nothing to do with them being lazy, lacking intensity, or lacking intent. Rather, I think it was simply due to: a) sweaty arms/ neck/ body that were hard to grip and hold; b) superior reaction and countering from the opponent; c) inability to establish a dominant position due to a & b.

The last two minutes (when they were both clearly exhausted) were an almost non-stop display of the takedowns, lock, and choke, and attempts to finish.

It was beautiful.

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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby bartekb on Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 pm

[quote="Ian C. Kuzushi"]
It's called the scarf hold (Kesagatame) in Judo and some forms of jujutsu. /quote]

my senseis speciality - he is bjj black under Galvao and 4th dan judo = is tapping people out from kesa gatame by putting his full body mass as a pressure just below the ribs and grinding it - moving a bit back and forth - of course high belts dont tap to it - but even if you survive - its exhausting - you are basically suffocating really slow, thoracic diaphragm has very limited chance to pump any air into the lungs.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:42 pm

"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Dmitri on Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:01 pm

Bill wrote:back mount head squeeze

Image

As John says, when you try for a rear naked choke your opponent can lower his chin so you cannot get to his throat, you can move the choke to the jaw/head and get a pain tap. It works in class but a pro wouldn't tap to it.

Careful not tapping to it, you can get your jaw broken -- pro or otherwise. A crazy amount of pressure can be created there, more than most jaws can handle...
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue May 01, 2018 1:46 am

To be clear, I have no doubt that JW can crush my head. I've heard reports from more than enough people. I also have no aversion to tapping. I guess if we are talking about a street fight, then it becomes important to know what will end the fight and what may not.

@bartekb: I know that version well. It's our first variant for kesa gatame. It's surprising how well it works as one would think they could easily escape from what looks like a more open pin.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby GrahamB on Tue May 01, 2018 2:16 am

It's a kind of choke through the lungs/neck crank/pain tap. Josh Barnett. The sub is at the end. To make Dean Lister tap with just seconds to go that must have been intense....!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE2TC9-oEk4
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby GrahamB on Tue May 01, 2018 3:14 am

Always worth having some defences in the bag for this position too... I find one escape never works in all situations, so you need a few.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvommbrGpak
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby Dmitri on Tue May 01, 2018 4:29 pm

GrahamB wrote:It's a kind of choke through the lungs/neck crank/pain tap. Josh Barnett. The sub is at the end. To make Dean Lister tap with just seconds to go that must have been intense....!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE2TC9-oEk4

I think we call that "reverse arm triangle"... but I'm terrible with names
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby bartekb on Wed May 02, 2018 12:15 pm

GrahamB wrote:Always worth having some defences in the bag for this position too... I find one escape never works in all situations, so you need a few.

the guy on a video has a bit funny kesa gatame,
classic one will be a bit more like
Image
Barnett also does it in the way that wont allow this escape to work

Today I tapped out to a choke - verbally:) - it was a very tight collar choke - I was underneath a guy and the collar got both my hands - I hoped I manage to defend by having my hands in front of choke but it was so strong I basically got choked with my own hands - so I had no hands to tap, no legs to tap, and my face was completelly covered, and I panicked a bit - it was really fun to discover after all those years there is still stuff in grappling that can cause me to feel fear:):) basically I was about to pass out and I thought - wow I will pass out, wont tap and the guy wont let go and I'll die. Thats not an abstract fear - there ws supposedly one case on UK comp exactly like that.
I love the fact grappling still causes terror in my heart:) I still think its colsest to actually killing someone wihout actually doing so.

I would also say neck cranks and spine twists are much more primal when it comes to fear they cause:)
Last edited by bartekb on Wed May 02, 2018 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Excellent ground game

Postby johnwang on Wed May 02, 2018 5:15 pm

Someone said that pain can only make people mad but cannot make people to tap out. When you stab a knife into your opponent's chest, the deeper that you stab, the more pain you can generate. During that process, if you ask your opponent whether he is willing to quite, or you should stab your knife deeper, most of the time, he will say stop it and I give up.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed May 02, 2018 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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